In Praise of ADHD

(mobile.nytimes.com)

155 points | by gnicholas 2203 days ago

29 comments

  • echlebek 2203 days ago
    I'm lugging around an ADD diagnosis from my teenage years, complete with years of taking stimulants, followed by years of rejecting stimulants, and embracing self-therapy, so I have plenty of opinions, as one could imagine. But I'd like to describe my own experience of what having ADD is like.

    Imagine a scheduler that has many tasks to schedule, and more incoming work than it can schedule in a timely fashion. The scheduler is designed to consider all tasks, but will give a higher priority to tasks that provide immediate feedback.

    A consequence of this design is that tasks which require a lot of time to complete, but provide little to no feedback until after the task is completed, are typically starved for resources. Often, they will never complete, or even start running.

    Well, that's basically how my brain worked before I started exerting control over it. I would flip from thought to thought, lingering on things that provided immediate feedback, like playing musical instruments or video games.

    Planning is a difficult task when your brain works that way. I had to consciously focus attention away from things that I was seemingly wired to fixate on. Even determined concentration was hampered by constant context switching, which I felt I had little control over.

    ADD is a chronic condition, and I still have to deal with this on a daily basis. But it has gotten easier. Luckily, I've been able to develop enough coping techniques to at least take care of myself.

    Most people who know me assume that I am very high functioning. As a software developer, I am pretty successful, and people equate that with intense concentration and process-oriented thinking. My own, inner world is far more chaotic than others could imagine!

    • jacques_chester 2203 days ago
      I'd modify the analogy slightly.

      Imagine that the threads present themselves to the scheduler. They arise continuously and spontaneously. Most of them are not valuable and should be rejected wholesale.

      Now take away the scheduler. The threads come and go as they please. They wrestle away the execution time from each other. They spontaneously explode or implode. Nothing corrals them, nothing gives a policy for deciding which one to devote time and effort to.

      No matter how hard you lecture the CPUs for being lazy, it never changes the behaviour of unscheduled and unschedulable threads. But it sure can make you feel bad.

      You say you've been lugging around the diagnosis since being a teenager. I was diagnosed at 32. Medication has been liberating. I am able to just be and do with exhaustion, failure, misery and self-loathing.

      • jgreer196 2203 days ago
        > I am able to just be and do with exhaustion, failure, misery and self-loathing.

        I have a very dear friend who has grappled with ADHD his entire life. A few years ago, we were talking on the phone when I asked him what the most troubling aspect of ADHD is for him, and his response was far different than what I was anticipating. For him, the one aspect that has been most debilitating is the constant self-doubt, self-loathing, and feelings of worthlessness that accompany.

        In a world where ADHD is viewed as a novelty disorder, stimulant abuse remains largely unchecked, and societal stigmas only serve to marginalize those afflicted, it's easy to understand why someone might feel this way.

        • goldenkey 2203 days ago
          I think part of the stigma is that ADHD is very hard to diagnose. And even people without ADHD can yield benefits from taking stimulants. For years, it was perpetuated that these drugs calm kids with ADHD down, but have a different effect on health people. Actually, the drugs do exactly the same thing in people whether they are hyperactive, have problems paying attention, or are healthy. They improve focus by increasing the levels of the neurotransmitters norepinephrine and dopamine in the prefrontal cortex, the front part of the brain that regulates attention and behavior. Basically, light that up and everything else gets controlled. But your heart still races.

          To get a little technical, here's an article from Neuropsychopharmacology:

          "For years, it was assumed that stimulants had paradoxical calming effects in ADHD patients, whereas stimulating 'normal' individuals and producing locomotor activation in rats. It is now known that low doses of stimulants focus attention and improve executive function in both normal and ADHD subjects. Furthermore, the seminal work of Kuczenski and Segal showed that low, oral doses of methylphenidate reduce locomotor activity in rats as well."

          Often you hear that if stimulants like Ritalin, Vyvanse, or Adderall help people stay calm, that means that they must have ADHD. This isn't true. These drugs will help anyone focus and pay attention. Giving stimulants to a kid with ADHD is more like giving a child with a learning disability more time on a test -- and advantage that might help anybody, but helps that child more -- than fixing his brain.

          • smittywerben 2202 days ago
            Non-stimulants also increase dopamine and norepinephrine in the prefrontal cortex, and not everyone sees a benefit.

            In general though, yes dextroamphetamine is a powerful stimulant that enhances physical and mental performance in healthy individuals as well as those with ADHD.

        • vanderZwan 2202 days ago
          > For him, the one aspect that has been most debilitating is the constant self-doubt, self-loathing, and feelings of worthlessness that accompany.

          I have been diagnosed with ADD a year ago (with inattentiveness being the strongest aspect of it) and this is exactly what is on my mind the most as well, even before the diagnosis. I am constantly fighting the feeling that people only put up with me for as long as their patience lasts, and that I will inevitably screw up in a way that makes them roll their eyes one last time and be done with me. Which also causes a lot of avoidance-behaviour.

          I fear seeing people close to me upset that I lost (for example) a gift they gave to me, or my colleagues annoyed at me for not be on time for meetings, those kinds of things. It hurts to be judged as someone not caring about how they have to put up with my quirks, and the fact that it genuinely is a struggle for me made me feel like an incompetent failure for years.

          The diagnosis giving a grip on where these issues come from and how to handle them better (and also realising that my self-perception does not match that of the people around me). Even without medication, this awareness is already helping a lot in making me more productive. It also helps the people around me cope I guess, since I can explain to them that yes, I do care and I do try, and I want to come up with solutions to these frustrations together.

          Apparently this is a very common, and easily overlooked anxiety among people with ADHD/ADD.

          [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/ADHD/comments/6eq724/a_post_that_ta...

        • chris_wot 2202 days ago
          My mind gets tired. It’s very, very difficult to maintain my attention in an orderly fashion. I often start to read something and find I have to put it down from sheer frustration.

          That tiredness makes me anxious, and I get even more badly distracted.

          Somehow, I do make it through most days.

    • 40acres 2203 days ago
      Can you describe some of your coping mechanisms? I've been really struggling w/ ADHD over the past year. It's hindered professional and personal goals but seems virtually impossible to fix.
      • amorphid 2203 days ago
        I have ADHD. Here's some stuff I do to cope:

        - I try to get myself to do recurring things at a specific time. It's too hard to wake up at say 7:00 a.m. The reason it's hard it because I forget to set an alarm clark. Instead I'd cope by just making sure I get a job where I don't have to be there before a certain time, and that time is after I'd naturally wake up.

        - When I need to do something I on a recurring basis, I try to make the task visible. Like living a toothbrush lying by the sink, putting vitamins in a 7-day pill thing for the week, etc.

        - I have have 11 bank accounts, each with a single purpose, and I have automatic transfers set up between all of them (it's not perfect, but it's pretty good). I prevent overdrawing a checking account by using a pre-paid debit card that won't let me take the balance below zero. When I have to buy something that requires a tip, where the tip will be subtracted from the bill later, I pay with a credit card and then immediately send a payment from the debit card to the credit card. I pay all my bills on the day I get paid, so I don't have to remember to do it later.

        - I embrace trying new things, because if I'm wired to be attracted to shiny objects, I might as well find a way to enjoy them!

        - lately I've been exercising a lot, and that seems to help

        - medication, which may or may not help, but it doesn't seem to be hurting

        - I plan as few things as possible, so I have less to remember

        - I archive or delete my email as fast as I can

        • smichel17 2202 days ago
          > It's too hard to wake up at say 7:00 a.m. The reason it's hard it because I forget to set an alarm clark.

          That's only true if waking up at 7am is the exception rather than the rule. I've found that morning is by FAR my most productive hours, so I need to wake up early.

          I bought a cheap, battery powered alarm clock[1]. Opened it up and cut the part of plastic pieces of the snooze buttons (on top) so they can't push the actual button underneath. Set alarm for 7am while it's open (the minute and hour buttons double as snooze, so we need to disable them, too).

          This provides the three essentials of a functional alarm clock:

          1. It's hard to change the time.

          It's hard to enforce an early bedtime if you know you can always push back your alarm a bit. And it's hard to resist doing that when you know how tired you'll be in the morning.

          Enforcing a wake-up time puts the right incentives in place. When I don't get enough sleep, my thought becomes "Why did I stay up so late, again?" instead of "Why didn't I let myself sleep in?". Making it a pain to change the time of the alarm provides enough time delay to ask yourself whether this is really what you want to be doing.

          2. It can't be snoozed

          Snoozing is terrible. It makes your body temperature drop back to sleeping levels, which makes it even harder to get out of bed next time. It also lets you waste away the morning with the assurance that you won't fall asleep and miss the time sensitive thing in a few hours. No snooze forces you to start your day immediately.

          3. It's not on your phone[2]

          Charge your phone away from your bed to avoid mindless browsing when you wake up. Better to start your day thinking about what you will actually do. A proactive start sets you up for fewer reactive distractions.

          ---

          [1] It's a generic model that can be purchased through many brands. I did a quick Amazon search to find the model; this was the first result I found: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B015MDVZI0/

          [2] If you insist on a phone alarm, Talalarmo for android is the next best thing: https://f-droid.org/app/trikita.talalarmo

          • amorphid 2202 days ago
            >> This provides the three essentials of a functional alarm clock...

            All good points. In my case, I left out the part about how I don't want a regular bedtime. When I have tried to sell myself on the idea of a bed time, I found it too hard to commit to the idea. Instead I usually just go to bed when I start feeling sleepy, which in typically in the 9p to 12a range.

        • limeblack 2203 days ago
          I have several bank accounts but 11 seems like it would add complexity.
          • amorphid 2202 days ago
            It's easier than trying to manager the details in an app like Quicken.
      • echlebek 2203 days ago
        If you want to cope without medication, you need to exercise a lot. The theory is that your dopamine levels are too low, and you need to boost them somehow. That's why medication tends to work for a lot of people.

        Try to get exercise every day. Try to get intense exercise 2-3 times a week. Work your body to exhaustion, and your quality of sleep will improve as well.

        Eat lots of protein and fat, and treat sugar like a toxin.

        Other people report meditation helps, I suspect it probably would.

        • chillwaves 2202 days ago
          When things are going well in my life, meditation works. It makes it better. I am able to calm myself down deliberately, I am able to focus deliberately.

          When ADD is acting up, I am not able to meditate.

          Going to second the exercise advice. If I can get it started (just get out the door) I am always greatly rewarded.

      • jacques_chester 2203 days ago
        I've found that simple stuff helps. For example:

        * Have a calendar at hand everywhere -- on your computer, on your phone, everywhere. Enter stuff into it immediately. Live and die by the calendar, because you will never remember things on your own.

        * Know what you're aiming to do on a day. Maybe you can cope with a to-do list, but speaking for myself they feel oppressive, like I am judging myself for all the things I've failed to do. But you can keep one thing in mind.

        * Email yourself! I bat tasks back and forth between my home and work emails, based on where I can act on them.

        * Exercise. It helps with a lot of things and research suggests it helps with ADHD as well.

        * It's the morning. You've made coffee. You should be preparing to do some exercise. Don't open the laptop or phone. I know you're going to "just check". Don't. Don't start, you won't stop.

        * When you learn about something that distracts you easily, either give up the addiction or accept the cost. I've pissed away thousands of hours of my life on websites like this one. I have mixed feelings about what I gained and lost. Right now I am noticing that Slack is becoming a problem for me.

        * Read books. Physical books lack the ability to open tabs or follow links.

        * Have times of day when you ignore things. At work I generally ignore messages on my phone. At home I ignore emails from work. In particular, there is no way for my work to reach me on my phone. No email, no slack, nothing.

        * Work in pairs! This has been phenomenal for me.

        * Do you take shorter-acting medication, like I do? Set an alarm for the doses you need later in the day. Left to my own devices I can easily sail past 2pm and then at 4pm wonder why the hellSQUIRREL I can't conCLANGcentrate on my wWIKIPEDIAork.

        * You will struggle with impulse buys. Rehearse in your mind what it will be like when you get the thing. Think about the regret of having given into the impulse. Even a few seconds of delay can break it.

        There are probably other coping mechanisms I don't realise are coping mechanisms.

        These are not enough by themselves. Not even close. Almost every one of these is only possible because I am taking ritalin, and every one of them is necessary because ritalin can't do everything by itself.

        • jacques_chester 2203 days ago
          Some other things I remembered in the meantime:

          * Routine! Having a reliable routine means I am never lost for what I should be doing or where I should be. I don't organise because I am prone to perfectly planning everything -- I organise because I'm dysfunctional without it. For example: every Friday is laundry day. Anything that misses the Friday slot has to wait for next Friday.

          * Don't stock your favourite foods. Everyone lives with temptations, but ADHD makes it that much harder to resist. I have a number of foods which I love and which I simply do not have in my home. No chocolate, no peanut butter, no bread, no pasta. I have these occasionally and as a treat. But if they are around they will get eaten. So I just don't keep them.

          * Don't know your passwords. Use a program like keepass. If you know the passwords for sites and apps, you will log into them from more places.

          * Go to an office to work, whatever "office" means to you. Make the hours regular. Try to create a distinct physical separation. The difference makes it easier to enforce rules about what you can do when.

          * You see a topic on reddit, hackernews etc that you deeply care about. Don't open it. Don't read the comments. You'll struggle to stay out and -- as you can see from my comments elsewhere under this post -- struggle to control your emotions. Just stay away. That's what I should've done with this one.

          * Don't take breaks if you're making forward progress. People say to take breaks, but in my experience it pretty much ensures you will derail the rest of your time. Right now, for example, I'm in about the 4th hour of a 5 minute break.

          * Do your best on sleep hygiene. Being tired weakens your ability to resist impulse still further. You will say and do more things you'll wish you hadn't.

          * Get a filing cabinet. Add folders. Get stuff off your desk as fast as you can. Empty your email inbox as completely as you can.

          * Subject to your finances, pay your bills ASAP. You will forget them. Or worse: forget them, remember them, feel stressed about forgetting them, then forget them, over and over until they're paid.

          Between ADHD, anxiety and depression, just being alive is exhausting. But I have gotten better at playing through the basic levels over time.

          • sj4nz 2203 days ago
            WRT emptying the inbox as completely as you can: Unsubscribing everything you can that you receive e-mail is a big deal. I don't even care if you're a fan of the product or blog, unsubscribe from the mailing lists. Just do it. You won't appreciate it initially, but give it about two weeks. It's like the TiVo effect: you don't realize how nice it is until you have let the process incubate for a period of time.

            Combined with how well anti-spam has been working for e-mail I am amazed at how useful e-mail has become again. There was a time when I would have received 30-50 "extra" e-mails a week that I would have to spend micro-calories ignoring until I decided to clean the inbox. If you can keep them out of the inbox to begin with, do it.

          • fjsolwmv 2202 days ago
            What's wrong with eating chocolate and peanut butter regularly? They are healthy foods.
            • jacques_chester 2202 days ago
              Nothing, but it's difficult to buy them in single servings.

              If I buy a block of chocolate or a jar of peanut butter, I won't be eating them regularly. I'll be eating them that day. I will feel shitty afterwards, I will berate my lack of willpower, blah blah blah, none of which changes that it did happen.

              The easiest way to win is not to play.

      • adhd_throwaway2 2203 days ago
        Here's what helps me cope:

        - Having some constant amount of structure in my life. Always having some activity schedule for 945 am and attending it without exception has forced discipline on my day as early as possible. In college, I chose one class to attend per quarter and always showed up. If I can fixate on one thing to center a schedule around, I find keeping plans much easier.

        - Exercising for 30 minutes or more everyday, as early in the day as possible. This is key to calming me down and also gives me measurable goals that I can pursue and achieve

        - Medication. As much as I hate admitting to myself that I need to be medicated, I think staying on my prescription has served me well

        - Automating as many important things as possible. Credit card payments are the biggest thing here for me, I don't trust myself to remember recurring events on a horizon longer than a week so being able to automate utility bill pay (could backfire, but better than slipping up) and credit card balance pay off has been a relief

        - If you're a developer, pair program as much as possible. The pressure of needing to show someone else that you're competent gets to you. You have someone else to call you out when you're going on a tangent that you'd walk back a few hours later.

      • tvanantwerp 2202 days ago
        All of these strategies that everyone has listed in response are making me wonder if I might be a bit ADHD. I've implemented a lot of these myself without any diagnosis, just because they seemed to help me with things I found difficult. Lots of other people, including coworkers and my spouse, don't seem to understand that I seriously can't handle certain things without these mechanisms.
        • reitanqild 2202 days ago
          That's how I found out.

          Disclaimer: don’t self diagnose based on things you read on the Internet. Ask a real doctor.

      • lilott8 2202 days ago
        Its only been alluded to, a time or too, but never explicitly stated (unless I missed it). But, sleep. Getting >=7 (preferably 8+) hours is paramount. (Also, just about everything else listed in this thread).
      • walterbell 2202 days ago
        Do an Amazon search for "add success stories", there's a couple of books on this topic.
    • farresito 2203 days ago
      This really resonates with me, especially the constant context switching and only being able to do tasks that provide immediate reward. That said, I've always gotten the impression that this is something that a lot of people, with or without ADD, suffer from, probably exacerbated by the constant amount of information we are exposed to.
      • mercer 2203 days ago
        Like most mental health 'disorders', it's often a matter of degree more than some clearly defined difference. That said, it's quite possible that 'we' as a society are becoming less capable of sustained focus and delayed gratification, and our constant mobile phone use, among other things, might play a role in that.

        It truly fascinates me how much phones in particular have changed our day to day behavior. I don't know if this is true, but I recall reading that many people check their phone, on average, every five minutes. While I hesitate to call that unhealthy, it's bound to have some kind of noticeable effect.

    • zamalek 2203 days ago
      Dyslexic and ADD. I used to agree with the kind of theories that the article presents, but I started to seriously wonder whether it is these coping mechanisms that are the advantage. We are forced to overcompensate with perfect strategies.
    • herbst 2203 days ago
      This sounds a lot like me. After my inefficiency even drove me to a burnout. I redesigned my life to something that works for me. As software developer there are always more passive options that allow you to set your own schedule. It also allows to work remotely what keeps my head out of further depressive holes (not exactly ADD but often linked) by beeing able to experience new things and environments regularly.

      It's not perfect but it works better for me than any medication / job combination I tried so far.

    • fre3k 2202 days ago
      >Luckily, I've been able to develop enough coping techniques to at least take care of myself.

      I haven't unfortunately. Oh I've tried, in spurts and bursts, but I can never seem to make it stick. I always go back to that immediate reward cycle. It's really frustrating but I often feel simply incapable. I think it's co-morbid with an internet/computer/gaming addiction, which sucks because this is my job and hobby as well, but it's hard to pull myself away and do "maintenance tasks" as I call them.

      • md224 2202 days ago
        I also have problems with falling into what I call “pleasure traps”... I like to envision my agency as movement along a landscape of discomfort, and I have a tendency to get sucked into steep local minima and have trouble getting out. I find it to be a very rich and evocative concept, and I’m curious if anyone else looks at human agency this way.

        And yes, I also was diagnosed with ADD and given stimulants as a child (and more recently, as an adult).

    • julianpye 2203 days ago
      Very good explanation. I liken the scheduler to an auto-pilot that takes over with irrelevant tasks and which needs to be interrupted and guided.
    • GunlogAlm 2203 days ago
      That's a really good analogy to use, and resonates with me a lot (ADHD-PI). Thanks for this, I'm going to use it.
    • astral303 2203 days ago
      Thank you for posting this, this is very much like my ADD head works.
  • gnicholas 2203 days ago
    Some accessibility/disability advocates are big on touting "the hidden benefits of x condition". I've seen a lot of this in the dyslexia community (see The Dyslexic Advantage [1] for a full-throated example), and I understand why books/articles like this are popular. They especially appeal to parents, even if the underlying logic isn't the most sound—and often it isn't.

    This is the first time I've seen the "hidden benefits" notion asserted in the ADHD context. Based on my conversations with people with ADHD (I work for an assistive tech startup [2], so run into lots of them), there is not much of a perception that ADHD provides them a net benefit.

    1: https://www.amazon.com/Dyslexic-Advantage-Unlocking-Hidden-P...

    2: http://www.beelinereader.com

    • wpietri 2203 days ago
      Sure, because they can't really compare; they've never been anybody else. ADHD is mainly talked about as the set of negatively-experienced differences. It's easy to see the good parts as just their personality.

      But the notion that it has benefits is hardly new. In the classic book "Driven to Distraction," the author a psychiatrist who also has ADHD, wrote about discovering ADHD: "I knew I was a slow reader [...] but I never had understood why I came up with different ways of solving problems, why I had an intuitive approach to so much, why I tended to think outside the box, why I could be so impatient so often, why I was so quick to draw conclusions, why I had an oddball sense of humor, and so on."

      He writes a longer article on the benefits of ADHD here, and makes clear that the negative traits are also often the positive traits: http://www.hallowellnyc.com/HallowellNYC/LivingwithADD/Benef...

      • falcolas 2203 days ago
        So, being incapable of working in a modern corporation is a... good thing? I would have to disagree. Remember, we're not a hunter-gatherer society anymore; anyone optimized for that kind of society (not that I believe ADHD would have offered any real benefits in such a society either) would not work well in our current society.

        I'm sure many with split personality disorder are capable of deluding themselves into thinking its a good thing too.

        • wpietri 2203 days ago
          Who says they're incapable? I know plenty of people who do it. I have done it.

          Further, as I mention elsewhere, it's true that we're not a hunter-gatherer society anymore. But neither are we a farming society. As we automate more and more of the boring stuff, I think we are, cognitively, moving in a direction where hunter-gather cognition fits in much better: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16607911

        • mistercow 2203 days ago
          >So, being incapable of working in a modern corporation is a... good thing?

          I'm not on the "ADHD is a good thing" side of this, but the argument you're implying has some serious problems. First of all, who says that people with ADHD are incapable of working in a modern corporation? Secondly, you're examining only one side of what is asserted to be a tradeoff. There are certainly other ways to be successful in life than working at a corporation, and if ADHD provides an advantage on those other paths, then it could clearly be considered a good thing.

          • falcolas 2203 days ago
            > who says that people with ADHD are incapable of working in a modern corporation

            ADHD is a disorder whose primary feature is the inability to control concentration. It's a disorder because the feature is strong enough that a person has trouble interacting with society without help. So, someone who is diagnosed with ADHD has trouble interacting with society without help.

            There is no modern institution which supports an inability to control concentration as a money provider. Paintings need to be completed. Novels need to be completed. Abstract thoughts need to be written down.

            Any advantage experienced by those with ADHD is also experienced by those who have trouble directing their concentration, but not to a severe enough degree to require assistance interacting with society. I can bet a lot of folks with ADHD would rather live at that point on the spectrum.

            • mistercow 2203 days ago
              There is nothing in the definition of a mental disorder that implies that a person requires assistance to interact with society. You can certainly have ADHD while being capable of coping on your own.
              • wgjordan 2203 days ago
                The DSM-IV definition for ADHD requires "clinically significant impairment in social, academic or occupational environments".

                This was (somewhat controversially) softened to "clear evidence that the symptoms interfere with, or reduce the quality of, social, academic, or occupational functioning" in DSM-V (2013).

                • mistercow 2203 days ago
                  Right: impairment, interference, and reduced quality. Not inability to function.
                  • wgjordan 2203 days ago
                    'Inability to function' is a straw man, 'requires assistance' was what you claimed was nowhere implied by the definition of a mental disorder.

                    One could certainly exhibit ADHD-like _symptoms_ while still being capable of coping on their own (= low 'impairment'), but an ADHD diagnosis would be incorrect in this case [1]. By definition (DSM-IV Criterion D 'clinically significant impairment'), an ADHD diagnosis is appropriate only when the symptoms cause severe enough impairment that require assistance (e.g., 'clinical intervention') to function.

                    [1] See e.g., "Symptoms Versus Impairment: The Case for Respecting DSM-IV’s Criterion D", http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.893...

                    • mistercow 2203 days ago
                      Well, "incapable of working in a modern corporation" was the original claim.

                      > One could certainly exhibit ADHD-like _symptoms_ while still being capable of coping on their own (= low 'impairment'), but an ADHD diagnosis would be incorrect in this case [1].

                      I don't see how your source backs this statement up. Yes, it's possible to have many symptoms but low impairment, but your premise that "capable of coping on one's own" is the same as "low impairment" is simply false.

                  • wpietri 2203 days ago
                    For sure. And I think it's important to note that in a disorder characterized by a mismatch between a person and their environment, changing the environment can apparently make the disorder disappear.

                    For example, imagine a musician with ADHD. They might struggle a good deal in school, which requires doing a lot of to-them-boring stuff. But once they're out of school, they might be perfectly good at earning a living, because the environment they create is suited to their approach to the world.

                    I was talking just recently with a software developer with ADHD. They preferred a pair programming environment because that was much more engaging to them than solo coding.

            • pgt 2203 days ago
              “There is no modern institution which supports an inability to control concentration as a money provider.”

              Are you sure about that?

            • sifoo 2203 days ago
              That's just not correct. It's an inability to focus on things that are not deemed interesting at the moment, and an inability to pretend otherwise. Give someone with ADHD traits a tricky problem that they believe in solving and you'll have to tear them away from it and force them to eat and sleep until it's solved.
          • cryoshon 2203 days ago
            idk re: corporation, but look at the studies assessing unemployment rate of ADHD+ people. it's something ridiculously higher than the normal population.
            • mistercow 2203 days ago
              Sure, and that's a good argument that the tradeoff isn't worth it in modern society. But what the previous commenter said was not.
        • tzakrajs 2203 days ago
          We are capable of succeeding in modern corporations. I have met plenty of other people with ADHD at Netflix, Google and now Apple.

          Edit: I was diagnosed with ADHD by neurologist and psychiatrist.

          • falcolas 2203 days ago
            Me too (diagnosed ADHD, work in tech)! Prior to being medicated, however, I was frequently on the verge of being being disciplined or fired for being incapable of completing some projects.

            Medication made it possible to turn it into a reliable career with promotion paths.

            That said, "incapable" was a poor word choice. Not entirely inaccurate, however. I know of many people who end up shifting jobs a lot - smart but lazy is how the upper management sees them.

            • tzakrajs 2203 days ago
              My managers might want to fire me at times (and some have tried and failed) but ultimately I think I have enough value that it is worth keeping me around.

              I am glad to see medication is helpful for you! I have tried it, but I didn't feel like the benefits outweighed the risks (the irony).

        • InclinedPlane 2203 days ago
          "Incapable of working in a modern corporation." Holy hell man, this is some 1950s era able-ist nonsense. "Oh no, they have 'something wrong with them', it's sad that they'll spend the rest of their lives in a living hell they can't escape, unable to contribute or function in society."

          I can point you to a zillion people with ADHD who hold high positions in modern corporations, and a zillion more who do excellent work. ADHD is just a different way the brain works, there are many highly effective coping mechanisms to deal with it. And ADHD does have some real benefits as well, such as hyperfocus and creativity.

          Also, I should note that there are a ton of people who don't even know they have ADHD simply because they don't understand what it looks like, and they naturally developed coping mechanisms that allowed them to be highly productive. ADHD doesn't look like the cartoon pop-culture version its portrayed as. It's not like some uncontrollable child bouncing off the walls and unable to concentrate on anything.

          For myself, I didn't realize I had ADHD until I was 40. Why would I suspect? I graduated college at 20 (with a degree in Mathematics), I learned about turing machines in high school on my own time, I read textbooks for fun, I love science and math, I can get lost in good books or studying quite easily. But those are, actually, signs of ADHD, which is a horribly mis-named condition, it's not about a deficit of attention it's about interest-based attention. If I'm interested in something then I can immerse myself in it quite easily, dedicate hours to study, churn through dense written material, iterate through "boring" repetitive tasks, etc. But if I'm not interested in something then forcing myself to do it can be like pulling teeth.

          • yesbabyyes 2202 days ago
            This made me think about a verse from Auden's poem "Under Which Lyre--A Reactionary Tract for the Times":

              The sons of Hermes love to play
              And only do their best when they
                 Are told they oughtn't;
            
              Apollo's children never shrink
              From boring jobs but have to think
                 Their work important.
            
            http://members.wizzards.net/~mlworden/atyp/auden.htm
        • rdiddly 2203 days ago
          Is it ADHD, or something else, that results in the widespread inability nowadays to keep two mutually-contradictory-yet-both-true viewpoints in your head at the same time? Or a set of pros and a set of cons? Almost everything in reality is of a mixed nature, so what makes people want to believe a false model of reality where everything is either good or bad, and must be sorted neatly into one or the other category immediately? Is it a need for certainty? For being right? You will find a shortage of both in life.
      • cryoshon 2203 days ago
        i don't buy this argument by hallowell for a second, and here's why:

        jobs don't need creativity in the quantities that adhd people muster by default. they need, let's say, 5 units of creativity, not 50000 -- that many leads to being outside of the room when the job only requires you to be near the edge of a box in the room.

        thinking "outside the box" is a hindrance. most people can't get on your level, and you can't bring yourself to where your thoughts really make sense to them. the point is that with adhd, it isn't a choice to make. they can't control whether to be inside the box, outside the box, or even in the same building as the (conceptual) box.

        if it were a choice to make, it'd just be an advantage.

        • wpietri 2203 days ago
          This strikes me as an over-broad picture of both jobs and ADHD. In practice there's great variation in both the amount of creativity that jobs need and in the ability of people with ADHD to present as normal when needed.

          I'd be especially curious as to the data behind your sweeping statement that "they can't control whether to be inside the box, outside the box, or even in the same building as the (conceptual) box". That's not my experience, now how the people with ADHD I know behave, and it's not what the ADHD literature I'm familiar with says. I'm sure it's true about somebody, but I strongly doubt it's close to everybody.

    • mistercow 2203 days ago
      I've heard this "ADHD could be an advantage" trope for decades. On net, I don't think it's usually the case for people with diagnosed ADHD, although I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of variance, especially in what I suspect is a pretty large undiagnosed population.

      I was on ADHD medication for many years, and on balance, I'd probably still choose to use it if it didn't make my anxiety so unmanageable. These days I manage it with nicotine, which is an imperfect but working solution.

      I find that hyperfocus has become predictable enough for me that I can benefit from it while reliably avoiding the behaviors that cause it (edit: confusing phrasing; I mean can avoid it when I don't want it). In that sense, ADHD may be a benefit to me, but I don't know if it's worth the drawbacks. But if I could open up my source code and do some tweaking, I'd fix the anxiety long before I worried about the ADHD.

      • silencio 2203 days ago
        You should ask your psych to look into something like Intuniv if you haven't already tried it. It seems to be a very promising medication - even if it's off label use for adult adhd - where you can even use it as an adjuvant to a low dose stimulant. I know a fair number of folks that have success tackling adhd and comorbid anxiety with certain nonstimulants.
    • philwelch 2202 days ago
      ADD has certain strengths and weaknesses. The weaknesses can be counteracted with a well-titrated dose of CNS stimulants without fully cancelling out the strengths.

      The strengths include (paradoxically) the ability to hyperfocus to a greater degree than non-ADDers and the ability to achieve peak performance in short-term crisis situations instead of freaking out.

    • ajaimk 2203 days ago
      The article does clarify that this is with regards to moderate ADHD. In my personal opinion, most psychology disorders were named to differentiate from "normal". Who defines normal?
      • bmpafa 2203 days ago
        I underwent cognitive testing for ADHD,and it was more rigorous a process than I expected.

        They administered a battery of tests, among them a few controls to screen for malingerers. Each was narrow enough of a task to believably evaluate a specific aspect of cognitive ability.

        The results were evaluated against the broader population of people with similar levels of intelligence

        So, for example, in one test, the task is to sum a continuing stream of spoken digits. Apparently, the test includes a distribution of other' performance,and that distribution defines 'normal.' performing worse than the mean (or whatever measure) is therefore abnormal and, potentially, indicative of some disorder or another.

        Tl;Dr they use ostensibly reliable statistical methods to define 'normal'

        • elcritch 2203 days ago
          Additionally the difference needs to be a std deviation or two away from the normal population. ADHD in particular has effects on specific sub-tests in IQ exams. It’s quite a clear pattern which emerges as the ares of IQ dealing with multiple conflicting inputs tend to be standard deviation below the rest of the sub-tests norms for a person. Unfortunately I don’t know the appropriate literature to cite. Another test which is used is response times to an onscreen test.
      • falcolas 2203 days ago
        Society, ultimately. Psychologists and psychiatrists just look at the population and identify the cliffs between "able to operate in society" and "not able to operate in society without assistance". Those diagnosed with ADHD are those who are in the "not able to operate without help" category.
    • sj4nz 2203 days ago
      Is there an explanation of what a "beelinereader" is? Their website is heavy on the selling and lacking on the details and I'm not installing something blindly.
      • gnicholas 2202 days ago
        The website describes it and demonstrates it in the text itself. It is the use of color gradients in text that wrap from the end of one line to the beginning of the next. This technique is popular as a speed reading tool and as an accommodation for people with ADHD and dyslexia.
        • sj4nz 2201 days ago
          The website doesn't demonstrate it on the "front" page. But the effect is so subtle I didn't even notice it on the "individual"'s page, probably due to a color display limitation of a laptop screen.

          I would have put a "side-by-side" comparison of the same text on pages like this to make it more prominent--one with the beeline effect and one without.

      • walterbell 2202 days ago
        It rotates font color among successive sentences.
    • Erlangolem 2203 days ago
      As someone with ADHD, very much what you’re saying. The original name for ADHD was “minimal brain damage” and that’s what it’s always felt like to me. Mathematical concepts are something I manage well, but I’m laughably bad at mental arithmetic. I’ve more or less overcome my struggles with focus and attention, but I simply cannot do paired-word association, or directions. If I want to learn a new language, I need to be immersed in it, which is fun, but expensive and time consuming. Until GPS units, I couldn’t find my way out of a wet paper bag.

      These things do not benefit me, or empower me. I feel a part of what I could have been is just out of reach, and that’s ADHD in a nutshell for me. If I’m being perfectly honest only two real positives exist as a result of ADHD for me:

      First, I’ve always been able to utterly lose myself in a book, fiction or non-fiction. I’d be lying if I said that was always a good thing, but it can be useful. I tore my way through Gray’ Anatomy in a few days, while people I know took a month to do the same.

      Second, I was lucky in having patient, yet firm parents who helped me learn what was socially acceptable at a young age. I don’t compulsively interrupt people, I can sit through a whole opera without blinking, and I have a strong verbal filter. The downside was that all of this was very hard-won, and at times painful for everyone involved.

      All in all, I’d drop ADHD in a heartbeat if I could.

  • falcolas 2203 days ago
    OK, let's assume I buy this argument, that being creative is much more important than being able to concentrate. Let's say, for a moment, that someone with ADHD would make an excellent hunter-gatherer.

    Point one: This is not a hunter gatherer society. A highly successful hunter gatherer will do very poorly in today's office-bound society. If you want someone who can only be a hunter gatherer to be successful in today's society, you can't just tell them to "calm down" or "concentrate harder", you have to make accommodations.

    Point two: All the creativity in the world won't help when you get bored of a painting, a story, a novel halfway through and can't finish it. Note - I didn't say "don't want to finish it", I said "can't finish it". Just like someone with clinical depression can't just snap out of it and be happy, someone with moderate to severe ADHD can't force themselves to concentrate.

    Point three: ADHD does not just affect concentration. Another big impact that ADHD has is on the ability to connect an action and its consequences if those two are separated by more than a few minutes. Funny image -> immediate dopamine response -> fantastic feedback loop. Doing your homework -> discomfort and frustration -> very negative feedback loop.

    Now imagine trying to live in a world where doing work and getting paid have no correlation in your brain. You have to intellectualize that doing work leads to getting paid, except you can't concentrate on it long enough to care.

    • wpietri 2203 days ago
      I'm not getting your broader point here. His point is that ADHD is not purely negative, that it has benefits. You seem to be saying, "But it also has costs!" Sure, but nobody said otherwise.

      It's true we aren't a hunter-gatherer society. But neither are we a farming society anymore. Circa 1% of the population works in agriculture. Yes, you can look at the Industrial Revolution as applying farming culture to machines; instead of tilling rows, we do piecework. And 1950s-era white-collar organization is basically applying the industrial model to paperwork.

      But automation is ending that era. With the rise of the computer, we are getting machines to do all the boring stuff. We are passing out of the farming/industrial era. It's my belief that we're entering an era where the ability to do repetitive, boring work is becoming obsolete. If we technologists do our job well, the only work left is exploratory, creative, social.

      So yes, having ADHD in a farmer's world isn't easy. But as the author says, the world's changing away from that.

      • falcolas 2203 days ago
        > Sure, but nobody said otherwise.

        What's happening is what I read awhile back - calling ADHD an advantage in society is presenting a weak man argument. Sure, it seems reasonable since they're adding the caveats... but the point that's coming across is that ADHD is not a real disorder since it's an advantage to have, and people who are on meds who have no real reason to be on them.

        Just see how many people in these threads come to say that it's not a real problem, that behavioral therapy is sufficient, that we're overmedicating children, that everybody is "a little ADHD".

        Whatever era we may be hypothetically entering; it's not the era we're in now. Being unable to direct your concentration is hinderance, not a help. And I don't think it will help in this hypothetical era, either. Not when finishing works of creativity requires a certain amount of "grit" - concentration on a task that provides no immediately positive feedback.

        • wpietri 2203 days ago
          I'm not sure what you mean by "real disorder" here. If you read the literature on "medicalization of deviance" it's pretty clear that "real disorder" is a very fuzzy and socially determined bucket.

          If you personally need medication, great, you should use it. But I don't think that justifies dumping on the people who don't. Or the people who do, but also see benefits in their different cognitive style. My ADHD has been a pain in the ass for me, but I'd never trade it away, as I like the benefits.

    • sinnoh 2203 days ago
      Point one: Sure it is. Those offices you describe? Look at how many of them are focused on things that require creativity and out-of-the-box thinking. A functioning ADHD individual could be a good writer or ad exec, or any number of other high-paying jobs, based more on their talents or portfolio. Though as you say, likely with accommodations - but what industry doesn't have its share of those.

      Point two: you made it a point to use the wrong word - A person with ADD sure as shooting can finish a book. Might they skim some boring sections, find later that it seems like they jumped around and missed something, use bookmarks often when bored, or reread sections to 'catch up' and remember what they've forgotten? Sure - but that doesn't preclude finishing a book if it's good.

      Point three: from a brief skim I probably agree, plus I'm bored now ;)

      • bdowling 2202 days ago
        Re point one: There’s little incentive to accommodate someone who doesn’t finish an assigned task, even when that person comes up with something amazing, creative, and innovative that is way more valuable. The result is a job evaluation of “Doesn't follow directions.”

        Re point two: In my experience, the vast majority of people don’t read the things they’re assigned or supposed to read, they just skim them. So the issue isn’t reading a book, it’s writing one.

  • kmfrk 2203 days ago
    I have ADHD and I hate it and it sucks.

    But I think 85% of the issue with my ADHD is the social stigma and people who will never understand nor accept it.

    I don’t think the right response is some kind of eye-rolling “ADHD-positivity”; people need help, treatment, and acceptance.

    ADHD is what you might consider one of the more “telegenic” disabilities, which is all the more reason to advocate for an inclusive, understanding approach to disabilities in general. Otherwise, people won’t get the help they need, and dumbasses will continue to revert to their tropes of “laziness”, “lack of willpower”, “bad parenting”, and “just need to put in more effort”.

    There’s a lot of confusion about what ADHD is and whether it exists at all. Here’s what, you don’t really need irrefutable evidence about someone’s predicament to care about other people who are different from you. Regardless of what you think is the case wrt ADHD, there’s an opportunity for you to grapple with the fact that there are people dealing with struggles invisible to you every waking day of their lives, and that you need to take that into account when judging them as children, students, co-workers and human beings, and where they got or didn’t get to in life.

    • brosirmandude 2202 days ago
      >Otherwise, people won’t get the help they need, and dumbasses will continue to revert to their tropes of “laziness”, “lack of willpower”, “bad parenting”, and “just need to put in more effort”.

      This hit me pretty hard. This has been me for the past 4 years. Diagnosed in college and convinced myself ADHD wasn't real, or if it was, I didn't have it. I was just inherently lazy and unfocused and needed to just "man up" and figure it out.

      Still haven't gone back to attempt to get diagnosed again. I guess I'm a little scared. Even though I've struggled with inattention (not hyperactivity, though) my whole life there's an entire half of my being that is just screaming saying "it's not a real problem, other people have real problems, this is just something you need to get past already."

      • follower 2200 days ago
        > I was just inherently lazy and unfocused and needed to just "man up" and figure it out.

        > [snip]

        > there's an entire half of my being that is just screaming saying "it's not a real problem, other people have real problems, this is just something you need to get past already."

        You're gonna laugh if you read one of the early case studies (about someone who thought similarly) in the book "Driven to Distraction" and come to the realization how typical that feeling & response is for people with ADHD (particularly the "Primarily Inattentive" variant). When I read the case study, my thought was: "Dammit, even my (stereotypical) objections suggest it's an accurate diagnosis!".

        I'd really recommend the book--it's not perfect but it covers a lot of helpful ground.

        My current explanation-by-way-of-analogy:

        Having ADHD-PI is like running a marathon while wearing a pantomime horse suit, yes, running a marathon like that is hard for everyone but what you don't realize is that other people aren't running it while also having a broken leg. (And neither you nor they can tell there's a difference between the two of you because of the pantomime suit--hey, I didn't say this was a good analogy. :D )

    • lsc 2203 days ago
      >But I think 85% of the issue with my ADHD is the social stigma and people who will never understand nor accept it.

      You... sound like you participate in a lot of online discussion groups where the general public talks about ADHD.

      I don't think this is healthy, for all the reasons you list. I mean, support groups are useful for some people, and you can have online support groups, but just like in person support groups, you need to filter so that the people who just want to insult you are not participating.

      I think this is something that needs to be taught in high school; once you are out of high school? you get to pick your peers. If your peers make you feel bad about who you are, pick new peers.

      • DoreenMichele 2203 days ago
        once you are out of high school? you get to pick your peers. If your peers make you feel bad about who you are, pick new peers.

        That's nice in theory, but it is a little like telling black people to only befriend nice white people or women to ignore all the sexist pigs. If essentially the entire world is the problem and there is a relatively small number of people that really get your issues (are really on the same page as you), acting like they just need to be choosier about their friends amounts to victim blaming.

        • lsc 2203 days ago
          >If the essentially entire world is the problem and there is a relatively small number of people that get your issues

          In that case, I totally agree that you have a larger problem.

          But my experience of adhd is not like that. My experience is that the only context in which other people give me a hard time about this sort of thing is if I talk about it in certain online communities. If you talk with a therapists or psychiatrist or if you read books by people educated in the field, you generally get useful help from a compassionate person. Heck, I've had good experiences talking with my bosses about this sort of thing. Mostly it's just the faceless internet trolls I've experienced espousing the views we are talking about, and I thing it's very easy (and very unhealthy) to get into a situation where it feels like faceless internet trolls represent how most people think.

          My point is that talking about this sort of thing online is quite often super counterproductive.

          (as to the larger issue... I can see what you mean about victim blaming... but I also point out that you could replace 'avoid' with 'ostracize' in my original post without really changing the denotation of my words, if you wanted more of a 'fight back' connotation.)

          • DoreenMichele 2203 days ago
            I've spent a lot of years blogging about alternative health approaches, women's issues, etc.

            I'm sure you mean well and I hope it benefits the person you are addressing. But my experience is that this is not a good way to help someone.

            I was sexually abused as a child. That was hard to recover from. Advice like "Just talk to nice men" was not actionable. If all you have known is abuse, you don't know how to identify nice people. You also don't know how to talk to them in a way that helps.

            The above person is complaining about their situation and your response most likely makes them feel blamed for the situation and most likely doesn't help them find a path forward. And this is likely partly because of how they framed it and you are responding to how they framed it. Other people will respond that way as well and it usually just compounds the problem.

            This second comment by you contains much better information that may be more helpful to them, such as listing the types of persons that you have found helpful to talk to. That still doesn't straight up solve it, but it is much more potentially useful.

            I'm not trying to fight with you or whatever. There are ways to make the points you have made that are helpful and supportive. I don't think your first comment is that sort of thing.

            Best.

            • lsc 2202 days ago
              >There are ways to make the points you have made that are helpful and supportive. I don't think your first comment is that sort of thing.

              Re-reading my own comments, I think you are right that my comment wasn't helpful.

              It probably would be worth the time for me to figure out how to say this in a more constructive way, because I do see a lot of people, especially my more right-leaning friends who feel deep feelings of persecution from, you know, things people have said on the internet, that would never be said in real life anywhere I or they have been or would go.

              • DoreenMichele 2202 days ago
                Internet communication is hard. It lacks voice tone, body language and other things we rely on in person to convey the full intent. The warm words in our head often sound much colder than we intended.

                Best.

    • limeblack 2203 days ago
      > But I think 85% of the issue with my ADHD is the social stigma and people who will never understand nor accept it.

      I agree but ADHD is one of the better of psychiatric disorders to have regarding both job prospects and IMO social stigma. You can can join the military and operate a lot of jobs with ADHD medication or a past of ADHD. Bipolar/Schizo/Depression have even a bigger social stigma not to mention they are often automatic disqualifiers.

  • nothrows 2203 days ago
    man fuck articles like this. I was diagnosed with ADHD in elementary. school was extremely difficult for me and I even flunked grade 2, but was pushed onto the next grade after my parents complained. My parents didn't believe in giving me the meds. I graduated high school with honors, but it took hours and hours of study because I was never able to focus. Then I started university... I was completely overwhelmed and dropped out. We've built a society where its a detriment not to be able to focus, denying your children a level playing field is absolutely cruel.
    • hnuser1234 2203 days ago
      The pills don't magically give you the ability to focus. They make you nervous and neurotic. You focus on things not because you have improved self control, but because your brain is closer to a panic and more anxious. Now I'm ultra neurotic and overall brainfucked. You didn't miss out. Oh also, they kill your appetite you so hardly eat and you'd end up inches shorter than you are now.
      • jbenner-radham 2203 days ago
        Maybe it was the medication you were on but my medication most definitely greatly improved my ability to focus and actually reduced my anxiety. But like I said we could have been on different medication, have different body chemistries, etc.
      • McPepper 2202 days ago
        As a person with ADD, I don't like taking the medications. It makes me feel like a zombie and emotionally dead inside. I hated it. It stripped everything of me but made me "productive" (as in acing school work - which did brilliantly). However, I feel it wasn't worth it.

        It took months just to feel normal again. For those who were wondering, I took a mix of short and long releasing stimulants. Although, I mainly blame the short releasing ones for most of my troubles.

      • smittywerben 2202 days ago
        You're supposed to tell stop taking them if they make you anxious. Maybe try a non-stimulant? I'm curious if you did other drugs?
    • bsummer4 2202 days ago
      So? The problem is our school systems and or work environments, not our biology.

      We are a VERY significant minority of the population, and our institutions are not working for us. We should organize and do something about it instead instead of letting people try to medicate away our differences.

  • julianpye 2203 days ago
    People with ADHD think less in silos and can form quicker parallels between different verticals. That's the formula for much of creativity, problem-solving and stand-up comedy. The main challenge in daily life is a hard time with taking decisions and prioritizing.

    I have been working for three years on a ADHD friendly Taskmanager as an obsessive side-project to solve exactly that daily life problem. In 6 weeks I will open it up for internal trial testing - volunteers welcome - just send me an email if you wanna join the trial (first version is Android only).

    • gukov 2202 days ago
      An ADHD brain talks back. Similarly to a rebelous teenager. You need to brush your teeth. You want to do it. But the brain goes "let's just check Instagram one more time." You see, the dopamine-inducing task always wins.

      To do lists, books, apps work for a while, until the novelty wears off and the dopamine return is diminished.

      Good luck with the app. Focus on dopamine.

      • follower 2200 days ago
        > To do lists, books, apps work for a while, until the novelty wears off and the dopamine return is diminished.

        I used to think this meant there was no point in trying out a new productivity system because I knew it'd only be effective for a month or so...

        But then I had my "To Do List Epiphany":

        It doesn't matter if a to do list or other productivity system only works for a month--because you still got a month's productivity! A system doesn't have to be the be-all and end-all system for-all-time.

        Because, let's face it, people aren't going to stop coming up with new productivity systems, so, when one stops working, just move onto another one. It's okay.

        (With this in mind I've toyed with the idea of a productivity system generator that randomly combines elements of other approaches to keep it novel, e.g.:

        * Ah, so, this new productivity system called "Get It Parked" only allows you to enter half of a to-do item in an app and then the other half in a shared community physical notebook located in a park which gets burned at 9pm each day in a community ceremony. :) )

    • falcolas 2203 days ago
      How is your task manager different from the thousands of others, including the bullet journal (which tends to work well for those with ADHD)?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hLnY9L1c-M

      • julianpye 2203 days ago
        Basically we have created a system that is very visual and which breaks tasks, projects and aspirations into workable, visual structure. Key is the UX.
        • sinnoh 2203 days ago
          I'll volunteer (will email later). I don't have an android phone but will happily pick one up if this ends up being something I can/should use (been meaning to switch anyways).
    • ynonym00s 2203 days ago
      Hello, I'm interested in your taskmanager app. Is your email [redacted]?
      • dang 2202 days ago
        Probably best not to leave someone else's email address here, so we redacted that bit.
    • chris-hexx 2203 days ago
      I'd be interested, if you can use me.
  • DoreenMichele 2203 days ago
    At age 5, testing concluded my oldest did not have ADHD. At age 8 in a different school, a teacher suggested we "put him on Ritalin" so he would sit still in her class. Yeah, let's skip diagnosing the kid and go straight to drugging him for your convenience. Nothing wrong in the slightest with that thought process.

    I ultimately homeschooled and I spent a lot of time on various parenting lists. Nutritional supplements actually have a good track record of calming down wild kids, but that isn't a standard recommendation and gets dismissed as woo if you talk about it.

    If you are interested in that angle, there's interesting research and discussion related to nutrition and prison populations here:

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16140867

    Over the years, I have seen other articles that suggest that ADHD makes one a better soldier or whatever. I'm not really surprised by the research cited here concerning ADHD genes and things like migration and occupational outcomes.

    Once upon a time, we talked about personality differences, saying some people were shy and others gregarious. Now, we diagnose shy people with conditions like selective mutism and we say gregarious people have no filter and diagnose them with conditions like ADHD. I realize some people really suffer. But I think it makes vastly more sense to take a nutritional approach and also consider what people are well suited for and help them find their niche instead of medicalizing and medicating everything under the sun.

    • jacques_chester 2203 days ago
      I think it's important to distinguish between the existence of a diagnosis, the time at which the diagnosis became possible to record and the prevalence of overdiagnosis.

      Because if you blur these together, you can hurt people who genuinely need help.

      • DoreenMichele 2203 days ago
        Mental models for the problem determine how we address it. A good demonstration of that idea is in an old joke about a doctor who castrated a guy when larger underwear would have been an equally valid way to cure his headaches.*

        If people with ADHD need, for example, better nutrition and are being given drugs instead, they may currently be getting harmed.

        * http://jokes4us.com/dirtyjokes/castrationjoke.html

        • jacques_chester 2203 days ago
          On the whole, I feel your comment assumes that 1) psychiatrists are willfully ignorant of the spectrum of causes and treatments for ADHD and 2) there is some innate advantage to non-medical treatment that is being deliberately overlooked.

          Given how much the three psychiatrists I've worked with have tested my health, inquired about my diet, given instructions about alcohol consumption, sent me for extensive blood tests, tracked my weight and blood pressure, I feel perhaps this isn't the case at all.

          Maybe the experts have expertise. And maybe your anecdotal experience and my very different anecdotal experience are not medical proof of anything.

          • DoreenMichele 2203 days ago
            Or maybe the experts are talented at extracting money while looking good. That's not a talent I have. I remain quite poor.

            I was a mom trying to do right by my kids. That's it. I think I did right by my kids.

            I spent a lot of time on parent support groups talking to mostly other moms who often disagreed with the well paid experts writing their kids off and making a pretty penny in the process.

            Our entire medical system makes its money off of ongoing treatment, not off of actually fixing anything. And you might pause and wonder for a minute about that inherent conflict of interest before fanboying your experts any further.

            • jacques_chester 2203 days ago
              I appreciate that you want to do right by your children. I'm glad you wound up with a better situation under conditions of misdiagnosis. When medication is clearly unnecessary, I agree that better not to.

              But it is not true to say that every single case is the same.

              Making universal statements about the nature of ADHD and universal statements about available treatments can deter people from seeking and receiving help that would work for them.

              Experts are more likely to diagnose correctly than layfolk. No single error changes that fact. Insofar as people are deterred from seeking expert attention, the net effect is harmful.

              Attributing the differences in our experiences to a uniform medical conspiracy against the public doesn't bear on whether treatments work or not for different cases.

              My parents cared too. Nobody told them about ADHD, because it just wasn't a commonly-known thing in that time and place. I was smart enough to stumble forward through school, with their love and heartbreak and the dedication of many frustrated teachers. But I would've done a lot better with just a little treatment. And I find it hard not to take personally the idea that others should be discouraged from seeking help from a professional.

              • DoreenMichele 2203 days ago
                I am sorry you are taking this so extremely personally. I wish you had stated that up front. I regret engaging you. You are wildly misconstruing my remarks in a very hostile fashion.
                • newfoundglory 2203 days ago
                  You seem to be wildly over reacting, I don’t see hostility in his comments.
                  • DoreenMichele 2203 days ago
                    Among other things, I am being framed as a conspiracy theorist:

                    Attributing the differences in our experiences to a uniform medical conspiracy against the public doesn't bear on whether treatments work or not for different cases.

                    Accusing me of wildly overreacting is not a good way to help in such a situation. It just puts out the fire with gasoline.

                    • smittywerben 2201 days ago
                      Uh, excuse me, if you think medication doesn't work, then you are indeed a conspiracy theorist. Have a good day, Ma'am.

                      Another common feature is that conspiracy theories evolve to incorporate whatever evidence exists against them, so that they become, as Barkun writes, a closed system that is unfalsifiable, and therefore “a matter of faith rather than proof” (Barkun, 2003, 2011)

                    • newfoundglory 2203 days ago
                      Well, when you make claims suggesting that large groups like the “entire medical profession” may be acting on motives other than what they claim, or that medical experts may be just scamming money out of people, it does sound like a conspiracy theory.
                      • DoreenMichele 2203 days ago
                        So, basically, you are accusing me of wildly overreacting not because I am but because you are keen to heap additional attacks on me for some reason.

                        Criticising an industry as having inherent conflict of interest is not remotely a conspiracy theory.

                        I think I am done here. This is a really tiresome pattern on HN of late where two or more people gang up on me and use bad faith tactics and then I get downvoted etc. It's a no win situation for me and seems entirely unrelated to whatever point I have tried to make.

                        • newfoundglory 2202 days ago
                          This is bizarre. It’s not “ganging up on you” for two separate people to think that your behavior is weird, and it’s not bad faith tactics either. If this happens to you a lot then I’d guess that you frequently seem to be misjudging other commenters here.
                          • DoreenMichele 2202 days ago
                            If this happens to you a lot then I’d guess that you frequently seem to be misjudging other commenters here.

                            That's another unfounded personal attack.

                            Women and other minorities often have a hard time in environments dominated by white males. It has nothing to do with them doing something wrong. They are simply demographic outliers.

                            • newfoundglory 2202 days ago
                              It’s not unfounded, it’s based entirely on information you provided. And being a minority (as I am, too) does not automatically mean any social difficulties are caused by demographics.
            • smittywerben 2202 days ago
              Based off of your comment history, I might be different than your kid. The teachers always thought I was funny, it was the other kids that thought I was annoying.

              But I'm as prototypical of a case as it comes. I went straight from college dropout to an A-grade distinguished student with medication.

              1) If medication doesn't work, don't berate me with conspiracy theories.

              2) Several companies offer free medication programs for ADHD. Did you try that? Or are you just projecting your anti-medication decision onto others?

              3) Or your kid doesn't have ADHD, see #1

              • DoreenMichele 2202 days ago
                In my very first comment, I indicated that ADHD was ruled out at age 5.

                It isn't a conspiracy theory and I am not anti medication. I was being attacked by someone taking my remarks very personally and twisting them out of shape, which appears to also be what you are doing.

                My point is that some kids benefit more from a nutritional approach than from medication. That doesn't mean medication does nothing. But it does mean that it is possible that some people would benefit more from other approaches and may not get the opportunity to learn that if the first thing done is medication.

                It isn't saying drugs do nothing. It isn't saying you should never take drugs or you are bad or wrong for taking drugs. It is saying that if a nutritional deficiency is a factor, drugs won't fix that. Nutrition will. In fact, many drugs are known to deplete nutrients and thereby can make things worse over the long run.

                • smittywerben 2201 days ago
                  Whoops forgot the source: Belsky 2011
                • smittywerben 2202 days ago
                  Well I see is an anecdotal case - of course it's personal - he doesn't have to tell you a goddamn thing. You're comments reek of negativity.

                  The third case is for some kids it doesn't matter. The top performers and bottom performers carry risk. And who medicates the top performers?

  • ajaimk 2203 days ago
    My ADHD isn't a disorder. It's my super power. I would gladly admit this to anyone; I mean it's not like they don't notice it within a few minutes.

    I have been on meds for the past 2 years and started at 26. I don't think this is "fixing" as I'm on probably the lowest dosage. Since day 1 I felt the same way I did after coffee. Vyvanse to me is extended release caffeine which kicks in as my morning coffee wears off and carries me through the day.

    • tzakrajs 2203 days ago
      ADHD and testosterone have helped shape me into a successful and peculiar person because of the sheer amount of risk I have been willing to accept (versus my peers). I moved away from home at 17, have lived all around the country and I made out it out of my small Ohio suburb where most people stay until death. I feel like ADHD necessitates intuitive responses to problems and highly deprioritizes rote memorization and recall.

      I have a distinct feeling that my ADHD brain doesn't have the ability to remember details with the same fidelity as my peers. I am constantly forgetting all but the most critical details, but I have a ability to intuit solutions from the details I have forgotten.

    • gnicholas 2203 days ago
      Curious to know the ways in which your ADHD is your superpower. It sounds like you benefit from Vyvanse (which you get because of and ADHD diagnosis, presumably), but you don’t mention any other benefits. And plenty of neurotypical people take ADHD meds and benefit from them also. Perhaps you also have other direct benefits from ADHD, like increased creativity?
      • jacques_chester 2203 days ago
        I put it this way: it's easier to connect dots if your head is full of dots wiggling, bouncing and singing.
      • ajaimk 2202 days ago
        Outside the box thinking for one. The ability to hyperfocus on the task at hand. The trick for me was finding a job I found interesting enough to work hard on.

        Do note that I had been working for 4 years before I started Vyvanse.

    • _RPM 2203 days ago
      I'm curious. what mg do you take? I've been prescribed 40 mg as the starting dose, after Focalin IR had negative effects.
      • ajaimk 2202 days ago
        Went from 20 to 40 and dropped back down to 30.
  • gleventhal 2202 days ago
    I know that some facets of my thinking are exceptional, but I am not always aware of what I am good at until I do it. This often leads to people being surprised by my abilities after they have written me off already. Its a novelty, but I'd rather be consistent.

    I am very successful in my career, but I failed my way through school and struggled with addiction when I was younger. It's not easy to live with ADHD. I have a lot of anger, people frustrate me so much. They are too slow and don't take enough risks.

  • ghotli 2202 days ago
    I would consider my personal life and career a success both because of my ADHD and in spite of my ADHD. Notebooks, lists, and routines are a constant struggle, but are how I cope.

    My current and most effective solution to date is an Android Wear 2.0 watchface that does the following things.

    1. Has a list of granular routines I can select. "Work - Start", "Work - Priority", "Home - End", "Let's get started" are all examples of such.

    2. I can "load" a list such that I can iterate through tasks one by one _linearly_ and I don't tap my wrist to denote "done" until the task is done.

    3. While a list is loaded, my wrist vibrates every thirty seconds to keep me on task.

    4. I can "Clear" a list at any time to stop my wrist from buzzing and to return to a "select a routine / priority list" mode, it also stops when I complete a list.

    This keeps me on task, reminds me that I've decided to work towards a singular goal, and keeps my current "cursor" at a glance. A part of me wishes I didn't have to live this way, but it's a coping mechanism that keeps me more effective than I've ever been and I will likely use it and improve upon it for the rest of my days.

    So, ama if you're curious about any other details. I am interested to know if a system like this would work for others. Right now it's literally an APK I load onto my watch that hits an API running on kubernetes. Simple, but effective.

    • let_it_be 2202 days ago
      I'd really be interested in trying this. Sticking to a routine has always been one of the hardest parts of all this.
  • avenoir 2202 days ago
    There is a hypothesis that ADHD is a condition caused due to humans still evolving out of hunter-gatherer societies and those folks living with the condition retained the hunter characteristics/genetics. More on this here [1].

    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_vs._farmer_hypothesis

  • andyt73 2202 days ago
    The NYT article is just wrong. First of all, most people do not have ADHD, yet this "hyperactive" society was built primarily by them. Second, people with ADHD still struggle in this world, arguably more than ever. A century ago, there wasn't even a recognized disorder -- some people just needed more time and effort for certain tasks. Jobs were not as mentally demanding, at lest not on the surface level (many jobs did require more "hyperfocus", in that they were narrower but "deeper"). ADHD became a problematic condition because society sped up, and people with the disorder couldn't keep up with it. As a 44 year old who has taken medication for ADHD my entire adult life, I know that it is slowness and serenity, not rapid-fire multitasking, that enables me to work better. Medication does not rob me of any creativity -- proper dosage enables creativity because it enables patience, and hence structure and planning. I get tired of people telling me my disability is a gift.
  • ojhughes 2203 days ago
    The hardest part of ADHD for me is the impulsivity, or lack of filter and inability to regulate emotions . So often I have blurted things out only to regret them seconds later. During my younger, undiagnosed years, reckless behaviour, drinking and smoking pot were the norm. Thankfully getting a diagnosis and medication has helped a great deal in sorting my life out! I am immensely grateful for my girlfriend who somehow manages to understand my sometimes difficult and frustrating behaviour.
  • limeblack 2203 days ago
    My brother was diagnosed with ADHD and subsequently formed an addiction to the medication at a young age. It is uncertain how he would have done with out it, but he dreamed of joining the military and was denied entry being unable to come off the medication. Between bad grades and ADHD medication doing it over he would have chosen bad grades.
  • jonex 2203 days ago
    The problem with the concept of psychiatric diagnoses having advantages is that they generally are defined by their disadvantages. So if having ADHD has advantages, it must be directly caused by the disadvantages, because you can't have ADHD without the latter.

    Saying that "ADHD is good because it makes you restless which makes you more adaptable to change" is therefore questionable. You could be restless and adaptable to change without having enough issues that it would warrant an ADHD diagnosis.

    A correct argument would have to include the properties separating people with ADHD with those with similar traits, but aren't hampered in their daily function because of it: It could for example go like: "Having ADHD is good, because if you are too unfocused to keep a job, you get a lot of free time".

  • smittywerben 2202 days ago
    I doubt this person would submit to genomic testing for ADHD. Failing everything (socially, school, and work) as a child and in adulthood isn't some fucking joke. This opinion piece is wrong. Might as well throw out the sunscreen and pray away skin-cancer.
  • mamon 2203 days ago
    Wasn't there a study in Denmark that basically proved that ADHD is caused by sending children to school too early and then forcing the usual classroom rigor on them? Delaying primary school until the age of 7 decreased ADHD rate by 73%
    • tonyedgecombe 2202 days ago
      I seem to remember that study showed that delaying school reduced ADHD like behaviour, not ADHD itself.
    • chris_wot 2202 days ago
      This sounds like the claims about being given autism by vaccines - irresponsible and inaccurate.
    • lazyasciiart 2203 days ago
      Was there?
    • sinnoh 2203 days ago
      too
    • burntrelish1273 2202 days ago
      WTH?

      ADHD is a neurogenetic disorder of executive function, it's not contagious, not acquired, not caused by video games, screens or the age at which schooling starts.

  • djyaz1200 2203 days ago
    In the book Deliver from Distraction the authors (at least one of whom has ADHD and is a psychologist) describe everyone else as having "Attention Surplus Disorder". They go into some detail describing how odd it is for someone to be able to sit still for 8 hours a day doing something really boring. It was an interesting counterpoint to the idea that ADHD is even a disorder... but rather a set of traits that have always been useful in some areas. Similar point to this article. I recommend the book btw, it was helpful to me in embracing the unique gifts that come with the challenges of ADHD.
  • InclinedPlane 2203 days ago
    I came across this description of the actual core features of ADD some time ago and found it to be very resonant for me: https://www.additudemag.com/symptoms-of-add-hyperarousal-rej...

    They are: interest based attention, emotional hyperarousal, and rejection sensitivity. It's amazing how many other symptoms of ADD these features cover, and how important they are in describing how ADD affects daily life.

  • chrisbrandow 2203 days ago
    All I can say is I feel like adhd meds saved my life. If you’re struggling, at least talk to a doctor to find out options. Don’t run away from learning more.

    But there is no blanket treatment for everyone.

  • discussedbefore 2202 days ago
    Inside the adult ADHD brain | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7882729 (2014)
  • trisimix 2202 days ago
    I'm ADHD and ODD(oppositional defiance disorder) with maybe tourettes(pretty serious tick though its diagnosed as tick disorder) fortunately I was lucky enough to fall in love with computers. I fond the easiest way to keep rrack is to juggle many things I view as entertaining or important. I definitely wouldnt reccomend this to anyone though. Whenever I try to go with the status quo though I pretty much lose my mind and end up playing video games.
  • danieltillett 2203 days ago
    Is there a name for the opposite of ADHD?
  • burntrelish1273 2202 days ago
    Praise? :/

    Just diagnosed as an adult partially due to parents not "believing in it," refused testing then and I was blind to it until now. Currently friendless, jobless, broke, homeless and a bazillion unfinished projects not exactly the picture of praiseworthy. ADHD is a misnomer, it's an executive function disorder, but the name will never change because it's embedded in disability laws. Medicating for emotional regulation, continuity of thought, completing tasks and not coming-off as weird are lifesaving... don't avoid medication out of some antivaxx nonsense.

    Worth watching:

    - ADHD Child vs. Non-ADHD Child Interview https://youtu.be/-IO6zqIm88s

    - How To Know If You Have ADHD https://youtu.be/5GBMS7WPFSs

    - This is how you treat ADHD based off science, Dr Russell Barkley part of 2012 Burnett Lecture https://youtu.be/_tpB-B8BXk0

    - Dr Russell Barkley on ADHD Meds and how they all work differently from each other https://youtu.be/LnS0PfNyj4U

    - The Neuroanatomy of ADHD and thus how to treat ADHD - CADDAC - Dr Russel Barkley part 1c https://youtu.be/wccW-KB2OsI

  • tzakrajs 2203 days ago
    The biggest challenge with my ADHD symptoms has to be relationships and giving sustained attention to my partners in a way that makes them feel valued.
    • emit_time 2203 days ago
      :(

      Do you care to elaborate?

      • tzakrajs 2201 days ago
        Sometimes I will be so hyper focused that I miss things that are said and other times I am so easily distracted (and rabbit holed) by the happenings around me that people have a hard time believing that I am enjoying myself. Instead, they tell me that I appear to be trying to break free of their company.
  • hsljekskfh 2203 days ago
    i have adhd and a good number of friends and coworkers with it too (people with adhd tend to attract one another). i can mostly speak for their social life because that's what i've seen, and also they're not obsessed with intelligence like some hn readers.

    the no filter thing is the most noticeable part. it can lead to extremely unprofessional management at worst (along with problems organizing). the upside is that it creates people who naturally come off as relateable and funny; because any conversation with them immediately feels casual and fun, they happen to be great at hosting podcasts and doing standup comedy (i believe most successful comedians have adhd, and many admit it). in a business setting they can be very convincing without you noticing it.

    it's more like a personality type than a disorder, and really it's considered a disorder because it's a personality that hates sitting still in class and listening to a teacher for the first 22 years of life. most successful people i know with adhd had some weird career path where they didn't do great in school, switched focus many times and then careers during their 20s.

  • allthenews 2203 days ago
    So, are we witnessing a modern form of selection pressure? Are genes related to ADHD favorable for not only coping with, but taking advantage of increasing availability of information in our modern age?
    • falcolas 2203 days ago
      I would have to say whole heartedly "fuck no". Sorry for the language, but I needed a touch more emphasis.

      Rabbit holing (which is how ADHD brains tend to act with a lot of available stimulation/information) is pretty much the exact opposite of coping and being productive.

      • mmmrtl 2203 days ago
        It's possible that the traits that in some combination lead to ADHD are adaptive on their own, or in some people, or in lower doses (like having 1 copy of a gene instead of 2). If that's the case, your non-ADHD relatives might be more fit, and the burden of some family members having ADHD isn't enough to outweigh the benefits to the rest of the family. Kind of like having one copy of the sickle cell anemia gene gives you resistance to malaria, but two makes you likely to die from sickle-cell disease.
      • tzakrajs 2203 days ago
        At the same time, people purposely dwell on stinker ideas and strategies where an ADHD person might be pushed by their condition out of that box. I agree that rabbit holing is pretty frustrating otherwise because it is unplanned.
    • rdlecler1 2203 days ago
      Only if it leads to differential reproductive success. One could argue that people with ADHD may in fact have more sexual partners and provide a positive selective advantage.
  • zengid 2203 days ago
    Frankly, just my opinion, but I think ADHD is an invented condition that tries make it seem like a child who can't sit still and work on boring stuff for 8 hours a day has a problem. I think the problem is that our public education education system isn't able to tailor content and engage the kids who are smart and bored.
    • MattRix 2203 days ago
      As someone who had ADHD as a child and now still has it as an adult, I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about. Yes, of course some (many?) kids are misdiagnosed, but it is a real disorder with often awful consequences. It's not about "kids who can't sit still".
      • zengid 2202 days ago
        I'm sorry that you've had negative consequences from ADHD.

        I'm just saying, along with the author of the article 'In Praise of ADHD', that we shouldn't just label it a disorder if there are positive aspects of it as well. Our society needs to learn how to value creative individuals, and not try to get them to submit to authority.

        Please understand that I didn't mean to insult you; I didn't mean to say that your struggle is not real. I just don't think its right to administer amphetamine to kids in order to 'fix' them.

        • DanBC 2202 days ago
          Why the scare quotes around "fix"?

          People have clearly described the severe life limiting impairment caused by ADHD, and these have fuck all to do with "submitting to authority".

          People with ADHD are more likely to have a drug or alcohol addiction; less likely to complete education; less likely to have a job; more likely to die in accidents; more likely to die by suicide.

          Taking medication is a small price to pay to fix that.

          • zengid 2202 days ago
            Scare quotes because giving amphetamines to a kid and making them feel like they are flawed might actually lower their self esteem and condition them towards substance abuse instead of solving the problem, which is a greater need for inner discipline to overcome their condition.
            • reitanqild 2202 days ago
              I think you got this completely wrong.

              AFAIK giving kids help, either medicines or otherwise makes kids lives better and reduces the risk of "self-medication".

    • sound1 2203 days ago
      Oh brother, how I wish you were right. I am 36 and ADHD is still taking heavy toll on my personal and professional life (I am in IT). I consider myself intelligent and can easily get my work done but maintaining relationships and dealing with people is becoming increasingly difficult :-(
      • zengid 2202 days ago
        I'm sorry that ADHD has had a negative affect on your life. Is it harder to complete tasks that aren't self motivated? I think that's what I was getting at: ADHD symptoms sound like an authority figure complaining that their subjects wont obey commands. I personally find it hard to maintain focus on 'external objectives' that other people set for me, but if I want to create something I can usually muster up the focus to do it. Not always, but if it's something I really care about I will maintain attention long enough to see it through.
        • reitanqild 2202 days ago
          > ADHD symptoms sound like an authority figure complaining that their subjects wont obey commands.

          Here's the problem: it doesn't take an external authority figure. It is sometimes enough to try to get yourself to do something you absolutely should be doing anyway.

    • InclinedPlane 2203 days ago
      You are almost, but not quite, correct, but in a way that is still wrong.

      Like so many things, ADHD is just part of a natural spectrum of cognitive differences. In the world that humans evolved to live in, the hunter gatherer world, it doesn't have as many disadvantages and it has some advantages. It's good to have diversity in populations, even in things like cognition. But in a modern industrial world it has a lot more disadvantages. And given that that's the world we live in, we have to acknowledge that reality. ADHD is very much an attention based system of cognition, but that's not really suited to the modern world particularly well. There are lots of things that people need to learn, and cognitive tasks that people need to perform, that still need to get done regardless of whether they are interesting or not. People with ADHD can develop coping skills or use drugs that make that much easier, but it's still necessary.

      It might not be 100% fair to call it a "disorder" so much as a kind of impedance mismatch with modern society, but the mismatch still exists and still needs to be addressed.

      • zengid 2202 days ago
        I agree with your arguments. I've studied art/music most of my life, so I feel like the 'disorder' is actually just part of what 'thinking creatively' is. Yes there are consequences (poor grades, trouble holding down a job), but also great rewards (invention, art, music, etc).

        I completely understand that we can't all run around without any discipline, but I have a hard time with the idea of doping kids.

    • jhayward 2203 days ago
      Yah, you're completely wrong and definitely haven't talked to any ADHD adults about how it affects their life.
      • zengid 2202 days ago
        Honest question because you're right, I haven't talked to ADHD adults: Does it affect your life? If so, are you able to achieve goals you set for yourself or finish self-motivated tasks with greater ease than other tasks, or is it equally difficult to focus on completing anything?
        • jhayward 2200 days ago
          You're assuming that I have ADHD. I've never been diagnosed as that.

          I do have several family members who are ADHD and it profoundly limits their lives when not well-treated.

          ADHD is a complex disorder. There are at least 7 different so-called "executive function" cognitive abilities that can be affected, each to a varying degree. But the most common one people discuss is inability to control focus. This can mean that you can't finish reading a single page of something you really want to understand, or that you can't stop reading something that's completely not what you should be doing. Hyperfocus and inability to focus are parts of the same disorder. Imagine spending a week, 8-10 hours per day, sitting at your computer trying to get a couple hour task done and never succeeding even though it is well within your skill, ability, and training, just because you can't concentrate.

          Also affected are things like time awareness, planning, visualizing outcomes, controlling impulses, and a few others. Many of these things fall in to what people steeped in the Western "protestant work ethic" see as moral failings; lack of effort, lack of "will", letting people down, etc. The irony is that folks with ADHD will actually work far harder to accomplish things than neurotypicals, while being labeled as lazy, worthless, unreliable, etc.

          ADHD is also often found with co-morbidities, that is disorders that show up together. Most frequent of these are generalized anxiety, and depression. This is why it takes a very well trained and experienced professional to be able to tease out a good diagnosis and treatment plan, because treating the underlying condition is required, not the symptoms.

          Once you become aware of how it can affect people it becomes rather easy to see it in folks, or at least to be aware that they could be struggling with it. That's why you see me, for instance, suggest to some folks they get evaluated by a professional when they ask for help in certain circumstances.

          Your ability to understand and relate to a lot of the people around you will be enhanced if you take the time and effort to understand what ADHD is, and how it affects folks, so I urge you to continue to do so.

    • stordoff 2203 days ago
      I know someone who wasn't diagnosed until he was an adult (20s), and credits getting proper treatment as the only reason he was able to go on and complete his Ph.D, so I think that a little hard to believe.
    • drngdds 2203 days ago
      >Frankly, just my opinion

      It's an incorrect opinion. Please do a little bit of research

      • zengid 2202 days ago
        I apologize for not wording my opinion well, but how am I wrong here? Did you read the article 'In Praise of ADHD'? Its saying it may not be a 'disorder'.

        Quote from article: The educational psychologist Bonnie Cramond, for example, tested a group of children in Louisiana who had been determined to have A.D.H.D. and found that an astonishingly high number — 32 percent — did well enough to qualify for an elite creative scholars program in the Louisiana schools.

        • reitanqild 2202 days ago
          > The educational psychologist Bonnie Cramond, for example, tested a group of children in Louisiana who had been determined to have A.D.H.D. and found that an astonishingly high number — 32 percent — did well enough to qualify for an elite creative scholars program in the Louisiana schools.

          I did extremely well in tests but was bad with homework.

          Here's the problem: many ADHDers have high iq and can easily pass tests but might have huge problems coping with the boredoom of ordinary days.

    • cryoshon 2203 days ago
      read a few of the FMRI studies on ADHD activation of the substantia nigra and frontal lobe during task oriented behavior before forming an opinion
    • tabletiptop 2202 days ago
      I hear this opinion everywhere all the time. I don't blame you for harbouring it, but I'm glad for the responses you've gotten.
      • zengid 2202 days ago
        Me too. Learned something today.
    • smittywerben 2202 days ago
      Lets say you have two options:

      A) program for 8 hours a day and produce nothing

      B) program for 8 hours a day and produce something

      I actually love programming, so this may sound critical.

    • pentagonpapers 2203 days ago
      I also think the drugs are given to trouble kids to make them comply in school, the they never develop the discipline to succeed. At least, after 5 years on ritalin and 5 years off that's where I'm at. My mind is all fd up and it's a struggle to work. I'm lucky in the I've been very successful in the corporate world but I know I'm lucky.
    • tzakrajs 2203 days ago
      Frankly, you are ignorant.
  • _RPM 2203 days ago
    my therapist tells me ADHD is a real thing. But, it's hard for me not see through the lines that a psychiatrist is only prescribing medicine because they can bill the insurance a ton of money and make bank.
    • jjeaff 2203 days ago
      Tell that to someone with adhd who went from unproductive and basically a poor student to highly productive and studious after receiving medical treatment for adhd.

      As for the psychiatrist, they don't make any extra money from prescribing. They could make more money if they kept you coming in each month or week for behavioural therapy (which doesn't have great results for adhd anyway, but it's something).

      • jeffmould 2203 days ago
        I had almost this exact conversation a couple weeks ago with a friend of mine who is a highly recognized psychologist. We got talking about medicating for ADHD and anxiety (I have a friend who is struggling with her son in this department).

        Basically, you are right, psychiatrists could make more money doing therapy, but therapy is more for psychologists and not psychiatrists. Most psychiatrists make money off of volume of patients. So it is in their best interest to prescribe more and consult less. The more patients that come through their office and they prescribe meds to the more money they make. He used the example of the psychiatry department at the public hospital next door to his office. On average, one doctor in that office can see upwards of 30 patients a day. With my friend, he can see at most 6 patients a day. For my friend though, as a psychologist doing one-on-one therapy he can charge more and see less patients.

        In regards to medicating versus therapy, like many other things, people react differently to different things. Some individuals may do better with therapy over meds and vice-versa. The downside of meds is that typically becomes a lifetime treatment. Therapy on the other hand, when it works, is easier to reduce over time (although most people will continue, even at a significantly reduced interval).

        • falcolas 2203 days ago
          Most people I know with moderate to severe ADHD require meds to even concentrate enough to enact any behaviour modification. That said, medication alone will not resolve all issues that crop up as part of having ADHD - many will need both.
    • roflc0ptic 2203 days ago
      It's real in that there are a set of behaviors which correlate reliably with each other that are described as ADHD.

      It's not "real" in the sense that there's a single mechanism underlying ADHD. It's not real in the sense that "people with ADHD are affected differently by amphetamines, so it's okay for them to take them."

      The way I think about it is that attention is a bell curve, and that at some point on the left of that curve, symptoms interfere with happy, economically productive lives. Psychiatrists try to help those people with stimulant drugs, whose efficacy have been proven in the short term, but are basically unproven in the long term. There are companies making bank on this arrangement.

      In summary, I guess it's complicated. You're right, but maybe your therapist is, too. Por que no los dos?

      • falcolas 2203 days ago
        Differently, perhaps not. But the benefits for relatively small doses (5-15mg) are tremendous for those with ADHD.

        ADHD is, ultimately, as real as climate change. The experts say it's real; have been saying it's real for many years. The people who disagree don't trust those experts.

        • roflc0ptic 2203 days ago
          Oh, to be sure I’m not saying people shouldn’t take amphetamines. They improve my life substantially. There’s just an artificial line drawn between “ok to take performance enhancing drug” and “not okay to take performance enhancing drug.”
          • smittywerben 2202 days ago
            Non-stimulants work too! The performance enhancers sometimes work a little better though. These drugs aren't perfect. Just don't fight genetics, they're much older than you :-)
    • ganoushoreilly 2203 days ago
      It's definitely a real thing. You don't have to take medications, but they can certainly help some.
    • John_KZ 2202 days ago
      I had to reach the bottom of the page to find the only 2 commentors that understand that ADHD is an umbrella diagnosis and medication is often a crime. And of course both are downvoted to hell and about to be flagged and deleted.

      Who the fuck would medicate a 5 or 10 year old child for being "too active"? This is like the 50s shock therapy for unruly teenagers, but done with chemistry instead. Less blood and morbidity, more mental castration. Many people who take up Ritalin and Adderal, especially from a young age, have issues with mental development and end up addicts for life. If/when they finally take off their meds, they find themselves 10x worse because of the long-term withdrawal.

      This thread is filled with reddit-tier pseudoscience about ADHD being some kind of evolutionary trait relating to hunter gatherer communities. What a load of bullshit, I don't know if I should be laughing or not. It's worrisome that even serious people and many psychologists believe that shit.

      • smittywerben 2202 days ago
        > end up addicts for life

        This is an archaic idea, you sound like an older individual. Am I right on that?

        > reddit-tier pseudoscience... downvoted to hell

        We can test for ADHD just like we do breast cancer.

        > medication is often a crime... ADHD [is an] evolutionary trait... What a load of bullshit

        Impulsivity is a sin, right? I'm not some puppet for your chuch, pal.