Ask HN: Which startup offer would you take?

I recently interviewed with two startups and the offers came in last week. I need to make a decision by end of this week. Both are doing interesting and challenging work. Both are also using the same set of technologies that I prefer. The base is in the market range with some differences. Here are the differences.

Startup A:

* Series B: ~50m

* ~20K more base

* ~20K less stock options

* No signing bonus

* Free lunch

* High premium for family health insurance ~300/paycheck

Startup B:

* Series C: ~200m

* ~20K less base

* ~20K more stock options (will be offered options at Series B strike price)

* ~10K signing bonus

* No free lunch

* Low premium for family health insurance ~80/paycheck

Thank you so much!

Anonymous-for-a-reason

70 points | by suomynona1 2040 days ago

47 comments

  • Maro 2040 days ago
    The standard advice, which my personal experience backs up, is to value startup stock at 0 when negotiating. Survival plus Liquidity at a good enough valuation without preferreds wiping you out are very uncertain.

    I would look at team, is the work interesting, location/office and cash.

    • ohyes 2039 days ago
      Well, value the options of the company you are negotiating with at nothing. Value the options of the company you are leaving at nothing internally, but at something when the company you are negotiating with asks. I’m making $xK dollars and I have significant equity is a better bargaining position.
  • jurassic 2039 days ago
    I agree with most people here that A is the better choice on paper.

    Your comments on B seem confusing to me. Options are typically granted with a strike price of whatever the 409A assessment of the fair market value is at the time of the grant. So if they already raised a C round, the ship has sailed on the "Series B" strike price. Anybody who tells you otherwise is probably either lying or misinformed.

    So, what you're getting with Company B is more options with a higher strike price. Keep in mind that the strike price is what you pay to purchase the stock that you may then sell at market price. There are also taxes due at exercise. Your net profit from options issued this late in the company's journey, after a liquidity event, is likely to be small because the strike price is so high and the company has already achieved much of its growth prior to your grant.

    For instance, if the company IPOs at $15 and your strike price is $7, figuring the fully loaded taxes to be around 40%, you will only make ($15-$7)*0.6=$4.80 per share. To get a more realistic expected value, you should also assign some probability your company will never have a liquidity event or will but under unfavorable circumstances that render your options worthless (e.g. after a down round of financing). The market value of your options during the liquidity event needs to be several times your strike price for it to become a very interesting amount of money.

    I recently went through an IPO with my company. The options I vested over four years are about $60k in the money. I count myself lucky that I'm seeing any money at all from them, but really I would have been better off to jump ship a long time ago to a BigCo with RSUs that offer a more certain return.

    If you really like Company B, tell them the going rate seems to be what A offered as base. With their recent funding, there's a good chance they'll bump you up if it seems like you're going to go with the other company.

  • quickthrower2 2039 days ago
    You don't mention anything about technology, culture, number of hours you are expected to work, commute, career progression, what your boss will be like, team size, whether you are aligned to their values, whether you find their work interesting, how much you need a high salary (e.g. do you have dependents, big mortgage or such like), etc.
    • monsieurbanana 2039 days ago
      > Both are doing interesting and challenging work. Both are also using the same set of technologies that I prefer. The base is in the market range with some differences.

      It seems clear to me that OP weighted all other factors relevant to him and decided they were equal.

  • mikekchar 2040 days ago
    Just on paper, hands down Startup A. Smaller company means usually less politics. More cash (even when taking in consideration the lack of signing bonus and higher health insurance). Difference in stock options doesn't override it. You have to multiply the potential gain against the odds of you actually making that gain. Let's say you have a 1:1000 chance to make a 1000x gain. The difference in stock options is then worth ~20K. As long as you plan to work at the company for more than a year or two, then you will come out ahead with the higher salary -- especially since in a smaller company you are more likely to have seniority.

    Of course, this isn't a question you should probably be asking the internet. My values are not yours. If you end up losing out on $20 million because you followed my advice, then you will hate me forever. So do what you want.

    • bb88 2039 days ago
      > Smaller company means usually less politics.

      In my experience this was completely untrue. Stable companies are stable for a reason. They've figured out their path to profit and churn on making deliverables. It doesn't matter so much on size, per se, but it does matter that the profit has stabilized. And you're much more likely to find that in larger companies, frankly, because they're large for a reason.

      In a small company, typically, the path to sustained profit is unknown and variable. Today you're the founder's best friend because you can crank out ruby code like there's no tomorrow. And then tomorrow shows up and you're out, because some influencer that the founder listens to told him that Node.JS is the future is Ruby on Rails is old hat.

  • poc_m 2039 days ago
    Startup A seems better, 20k more than market rate sounds really good for a startup, and based on very recent HN threads (but also some bias from badly made personal decisions), it's hard for employees to make money from options so best assume they are worth 0 when making a decision like this. You should get market rate at least, then everything extra can go toward more money or more stock, whichever excites you to work more.

    But, there are several other factors that may contribute more to your happiness:

    - Who will you report to in each company? How many levels under the CEO/CTO? Politics can suck the life out of you and make you not want to work even when you are making more.

    - How many hours of work per week is really expected? Is it corporate 9-5 or startup 9-5 (aka 9-9). Only way to get that info is from people working there.

    - How many days of vacation do you get? Is it a loose 'open vacation' policy or do you actually get a fixed number of days that you can take off? Preferably it's the latter.

    - What percentage of the company do your stock options make up? Do you know the number of shares outstanding, liquidation preferences, etc.

    - What kind of work will you do? Does the domain and the stack interest you? Does this help you reach your career goals?

    Hope this helps, good luck!

    EDIT: Formatting.

  • matco11 2039 days ago
    Based on the info you provided, there isn’t really an economic difference between the two offers. As a result, if I were you, I would try to decide based on other parameters: how do you like the product, the people you would be reporting to, opportunities for personal growth, etc. All else being equal, I would go for the smaller company, as intrinsically it’s likely to offer more opportunity, or continue interviewing with more companies to get more offers.
  • kenneth 2040 days ago
    Not sure what you mean by 20k in options. If you mean share count, those are meaningless numbers, in that without knowing the number of outstanding shares you don't know the denominator in the denominator in the fraction. Find out all the terms: numbers of shares outstanding, strike price & 409a valuation, last round preferred valuation, vesting schedule, etc.

    Other than that, A looks more promising.

  • shekispeaks 2039 days ago
    Better health insurance and lunch are signs that the company cares more about employees. This is a big signal in my book
  • jason_slack 2039 days ago
    My thoughts are a bit different......

    1. Is one of these jobs easier on your personal life? i.e. taking care of kids, significant other, etc?

    2. Is one of these jobs more interesting to you? Personal growth for the future?

    3. Have you ever had stock options from other jobs amount to anything tangible and I mean really tangible, more than 6 figures?

    4. Are you ok working for less base salary and if the stock options never amount to anything you will be ok with that?

    I prefer a pay-check to plan my future not a hyped up promise most companies pitch when they mention their options package. I told a company recently that their options meant absolutely nothing to me. Neither did their free lunch or Friday night company dinners at some "new and exciting" restaurant. They replied most staff there was working for more options than salary. It became clear to me then why they were having motivation and teamwork struggles.

  • znpy 2039 days ago
    Startup A.

    First things first: if you're being offered a position at a startup-b-level now, you're likely to qualify for working there in the future too.

    More concrete things: 20k$ more on base salary and free lunch are real world perks.

    You'll make up for the 10k$ signing bonus in the first six months alone anyway.

  • bluesnowmonkey 2039 days ago
    Value the higher base salary. You don't just make more at this job. It's the number they'll probably ask for at your next job, so you'll make more there too. It's a raise for the rest of your life, cumulatively worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.
  • mathattack 2039 days ago
    You left out the most important two things:

    1 - How much will you respect your boss?

    2 - Will they give you time?

    The answers to that will determine how much you learn.

  • segmondy 2039 days ago
    Here's how I'll think about it.

    Forget the options for a minute. Let's say you plan on being there for 2 yrs.

    20k - (280*12) -5 = 11640

    Option A = $11640 before taxes. ~$7000 after taxes.

    is $7000 after taxes going to matter to you? If you don't have those, would you be fine? If it matters then option A is looking better.

    Now look at the business fundamentals, you know these companies better, how long have they been in business. How much did they both raise in A & B rounds? B2B or B2C? B2B always, what's the number of customers they currently have? How's traction? Who are the competition in the industry? Who are the founders and C suites? How many employees, what's on glassdoor & blind? What's their tech stack? Any well known folks in the industry working there? This is a full day work of research, put it all together and see who looks likely to make it to the finish line?

    If A is more likely to succeed, easy, go with A. If B is more likely, then does that extra $7000 from A really matter? If not, go with B. If it matters, can you work some side gigs? 20hrs a month at $50 will get you the same $7000 at the end of the year? If you can work some side gigs, then B. If you can't work side gigs and need that $7000, can you downsize and give up some things? Nope? Then option A.

  • uiri 2039 days ago
    Ask startup A for a $10k signing bonus to match startup B. Free lunch vs lower health insurance looks like a wash. $20k more base is probably worth more than $20k more in options.

    Aside, what does "$20k more stock options" mean? $20k more in strike? The strike value is how much the stock has to be worth before the options are worth anything. And if they're issuing you in the money (i.e. Series B strike price) options, then you're going to have a nasty tax bill.

  • late2part 2040 days ago
    Which job would cause you to enjoy life more? At which job will you have the largest impact over the next 5 years?

    $10k signing bonuses are tie breakers after you answer the real questions.

  • donretag 2039 days ago
    Personally, I view free lunch as a signal that your are expected to work thru lunch with long hours. Surely there had to be other differences. Commute?
    • maaaats 2039 days ago
      Huh, for me free lunch means the company takes an interest in the well-being of its employees (fixd). This may differ from area to area, though. But I find it more social and relaxing to just eat inside, than having to spend energy and time on finding a place to go out and eat.
      • sverhagen 2039 days ago
        >takes an interest in the well-being of its employers

        Freudian? ;-)

        • maaaats 2039 days ago
          Hehe. As a non-native speaker I have a hard time remembering the difference between employer and employee.
  • ohyes 2039 days ago
    So A is giving you 7k more money after healthcare and signing bonus for the first year, and 17k more for subsequent years. B gives you a one time 20k (dollars?) worth of stock options.

    I would take the cash, how many years do you want to stay at the next place? The math is pretty easy.

    I personally choose based on who I want to work with, how I think I’ll grow professionally and is the company doing something I want to be involved in.

  • brogrammernot 2039 days ago
    It’s hard to gauge the Series B vs C because Company B’s product could just be significantly more cash intensive.

    Could you shed some light on the two companies/focus areas?

    Some posters have made good points that on paper Company A’s equity should be worth more to you, but either way you need a liquidation event for you to make money off the equity (unless either offers a tinder or palantir item where you can sell a % of your shares every 12-18 months to the company).

    I’d choose whatever company’s mission/work seems more appealing to you. If you have a family, I’d likely choose the one with the higher base salary as $20k isn’t a small sum wlhen it comes to the cost of raising a family. For someone who is just on their own, it’s easier at times to accept a higher risk threshold and opt for more equity if the company’s path to a liquidation event seems more relevant.

    Honestly speaking, I’d have to imagine that considering those offers that Company B wouldn’t match or come close to the base salary of Company A. $20k is a drop in the bucket for what I’m assuming is a technical hire as your work should easily cover that difference.

  • nodesocket 2039 days ago
    My personal experience is if the salary is high enough, lunch is a non-factor, you'll want to actually get out of the office and get some fresh air. $15-30 a day for lunch is a rounding error. 261 work days in a year * $20 per lunch = $5,220 a year. I'd much rather get away, go out with colleagues, friends, try new lunch places. Optimize for happiness.
    • chrisper 2039 days ago
      You must be making a lot if you consider 5220 a year rounding error...
  • codingdave 2039 days ago
    Which leadership team is better for you? Which one can deliver both a successful company, and a healthy working environment where you will be respected and given opportunities to grow?

    The details of the offer won't matter one bit without good leadership. So think carefully about how the interviews went, and choose the better team.

  • betadreamer 2039 days ago
    If you are asking this, that means you need more data. DO NOT judge startup solely based on the compensation package. Some tips to ask:

    - Work environment. This involves who you will be working with and how they work together? Do they use Scrum? Have you talked to anyone that you will be working closely with?

    - Growth Potential. Which one is more challenging? Which environment is more suitable for you to grow?

    - Go deep in where the company stand. Competitors, market fit/advantage, etc.

    - Ignore the number of stock options. Ask for outstanding shares or get the percentage.

    - How's the founder?

    All being said, don't be afraid to negotiate! Company take so much time to write an offer. No company will decline you just by negotiating. Least thing they will do is to tell you straight up that this is their best offer. If you like B more than A, tell them you will sign if they match the base with the other.

  • iambinksy 2039 days ago
    The things important to me are annual leave, are there periods of crunch and whether you are expected to be available on email or otherwise out of work.

    I care more about my quality of life now that I'm a bit older, you might not have the same considerations now but things do change.

  • whalesalad 2039 days ago
    Based on the info you provided A is my preference. Unless it’s due to hyper growth a series C isn’t giving me a warm and fuzzy. Your options will be worth more at A. You also have the ability to earn more options based on performance at any time so don’t forget that. I’d take salary and lunch and not sweating benefits over more options at a later-stage company that just got 200m. (I’m one of those old stubborn people who think raising money should generally be a last resort.)

    That being said as other commenters babe stared I’d care most about my team, the domain, the impact I would have in the org and the impact the role would have on my career.

  • gesman 2039 days ago
    Ignore stock options. Unless whatever they call options - can be sold for cash (possibly after vesting) in an opened market. If not - consider it's $0 value.

    Re-compare everything afterwards. $10k signing bonus is not a biggie compare to consistent +$20k base. Bigger premium for health insurance may mean bigger benefits - but make sure to dig that.

    Free lunch saves you $10/day - multiply it by 200 - and here's another $2k after taxes or $3k before taxes.

    Also - regardless of everything - which place feels more fun to work at?

  • axedwool 2040 days ago
    Assuming everything else is a frictionless void, Company A is a better deal compensation-wise, so that's where I'd go.
  • emdowling 2040 days ago
    You mention "interesting and challenging work" - but which one is more meaningful for you? Which one will let you deliver the impact which is most inline with your values and principles? Compensation-wise "A" edges out "B", but which one will you be more excited to get out of bed for each morning?
  • nojvek 2039 days ago
    Option C. Work at a big mature company that gives RSUs, big fat salaries and signing bonus.

    Startups that make it big are rare and like winning the lottery.

    Don’t. Just don’t work for subpar salary. Assume your stocks are worthless, assume you’ll burn out in an year or two (most do). Will you still be content? Then do it. Don’t bank on the lottery.

  • suomynona1 2039 days ago
    Adding more details:

    I have a family and kids. I am the single income earner in the family.

    * Both have opportunities to grow into management although with A it feels much more possible due to their size

    * Both give unlimited vacation

    * Both are located fairly close to each other so commute will be the same

    * Both pay for bus passes

    * Both have 401K but no matching, yet

    * Startup A is much smaller 11-50

    * Startup B is 300+

    • PascLeRasc 2039 days ago
      Unless the Glassdoor reviews are a red flag, it seems like startup A is significantly better based on the base salary and potential for personal impact and growth (and even higher salary).
  • ryandrake 2039 days ago
    Any other benefits that are different? 401k details? What are the specific differences in the health coverages? Maybe startup A’s health coverage is worth the extra money. Other, non-health-related insurance benefits? Vacation time? So many things to consider in the package.
  • sbfeibish 2039 days ago
    In the mid to late 1980's I went for $10,000 more and a job at a regular company. A research institute. Instead of $10,000 less and stock options at a well-established startup. I regret my decision to this day. The stock option company is a name you know.
  • jonthepirate 2040 days ago
    The one with better KPI's, unless your gut tells you you won't like your coworkers.
  • prawn 2039 days ago
    Go to Company A. Explain that you have interviewed with two great companies, both with solid offers, but that the alternative has offered (in part) a $10k signing bonus. Say that if they can match that signing bonus, you're on board.
  • suomynona1 2039 days ago
    Adding few more details:

    Both startups are B2B. Startup A started as B2C but are expanding to include B2B (more focus and that's I'll be coming in place).

    Hopefully, I don't reveal too much by saying this:

    Startup B is YC backed.

  • kbuchanan 2040 days ago
    How big is the team you’ll work on for each firm?
  • woolvalley 2039 days ago
    Real question is, how does it compare to FANG? Even if there is an exit, it is unlikely to meet what you would of made at FANG.
  • bitVelocity 2038 days ago
    Most startups fail, take the most cash you can.
  • jakobegger 2039 days ago
    Looking through the answers, I'm surprised that people seem to prefer free lunch to affordable health care...
    • tempestn 2039 days ago
      The difference in healthcare cost is $220/month, or about $7 per day. Free lunch could easily be worth that much. More importantly though, the free lunch offering has a $20k higher salary.
      • dbuxton 2039 days ago
        $220/paycheck which in the US is typically twice a month, so $440/month.

        My experience as a Brit working in the US is also that health insurance with higher employee contribution is often also (bizarrely) more expensive and worse quality in other ways, so there are additional non-financial (or not just financial) factors to consider. But the OP hasn't given enough detail to evaluate.

        • tempestn 2039 days ago
          Ah, good point; I read it as per month for some reason. Also divided by 30 rather than working days in a month, ~21. So it's more like $21/day, which is obviously more than a lunch. Either way though, these differences are dwarfed by the difference in salary, so it really comes down to that and the actual differences between the jobs and work environments. (Interesting point that higher-contribution healthcare is generally lower quality though! Would be interesting to see some kind of study of that; it does make intuitive sense.)
  • lazyjones 2039 days ago
    The one with the more interesting (to you) product/market, if everything else seems equal.
  • philliphaydon 2039 days ago
    20k more or 20k less. That’s 40k difference. That alone should put you on option A without a thought. Base is not relevant when you’re saying 1 is more and the other is less and you can only choose between the 2. One is either 40k more or 40k less.
  • sverhagen 2039 days ago
    Can we know what your decided? :)
  • denkmoon 2039 days ago
    startup A is probably a little more down to earth.
  • rajaganesh87 2039 days ago
    Startup A
  • noncoml 2040 days ago
    A
  • expathacker 2039 days ago
    "Cash Rules Everything Around Me." -- Wu-Tang Clan.

    I'm old and jaded, but salary should be your primary metric. Stock options are worthless. I took a 50% cut at PagerDuty (YC10) for 2% of the stock options, they're now worth $1bn+ and screwed me pretty hard, the day after my father died. They didn't even offer any severance pay until I pointed out how much damage I could do to their reputation, then they gave me a week. Start-ups, especially run by new founders, don't know how to treat people humanely. Thanks guys. Since then my attitude is, "Fuck you, pay me". You will not win the start-up lottery. If they don't offer an 83(b) election, you could end up in the red if they do exist. This happened frequently in 2001, it even lead to several infamous suicides.[1]

    Are you 200% sure you will last the 3/6 month signing-bonus waiting period? If not you could end up with a liability greater than the value of the bonus. I had this when when a start-up outsourced ops to LoudCloud. They contested our unemployment claim and I spent $3k in legal fees fighting them, in the middle of the start-up recession.

    Start-ups will not invest in you as an employee, and will drop you without a second thought. Expect to spend all of your free time learning new skills just so you don't get fired.

    [1] https://www.siliconinvestor.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=17123680

    (edited for spacing, and to add the anecdote about severance pay)

    • harel 2039 days ago
      I will be considered old by some youngsters, though in my head I'm still 17. And as an "elder", I'll concur that what said here by "old and jaded" is true:

      Cash is king, startups will want you to feel "family" but you'll never be one. In the unlikely event equity is worth anything, converting it to cold hard cash is not always straight forward. In other words - take the money.

      • expathacker 2039 days ago
        > In the unlikely event equity is worth anything, converting it to cold hard cash is not always straight forward.

        People rarely seem to understand this. A successful exit doesn't necessarily mean employees will get paid. A friend experienced this when Google bought the start-up he had been at for 2 years. Employees had to wait a year for an earn-out period. They had to re-interview for their positions, and fired if they didn't meet Google's impossibly high standards.

        (edited to clean-up a grammatical error)

        • segmondy 2039 days ago
          An exit is not necessarily "a successful exit" There are lots of exits that look successful from the outside, but are not for the founders or their employees. The investors have to get paid first and usually by time they are done taking their slice of the pie there's nothing but crumbs left.
          • harel 2038 days ago
            Also many "successful exists" are so because there is some monetary gain, but the gain is minimal considering the amount of time invested and money lost during that time. I had a couple of those. The experience gained was worth more than the money.
        • godelmachine 2039 days ago
          Do you think all engineers at DeepMind had to re-interview at Google when DeepMind was taken over?
    • toomuchtodo 2039 days ago
      I hope you don't mind me bookmarking this (very astute) comment and using it as part of my chat with folks as to why they shouldn't work for a startup.
    • segmondy 2039 days ago
      How did PagerDuty screw you? By firing you?
      • bb88 2039 days ago
        Yeah. Probably because he had 2% of the options, and they wanted to claw it back from him.
        • kbyatnal 2039 days ago
          I don’t think firing gets rid of vested options, right?
          • bb88 2036 days ago
            Right, but OP said he was fired before he had options vested.

            So he took 2% options at a 50% pay cut, but then got fired and that screwed him out of the 2% options before he could vest.

            Welcome to the valley.

      • expathacker 2038 days ago
        Ugh, I shouldn't post while 1/2 awake on 12 hour flights. PagerDuty fired me before I was vested. I was 1/2 evangelist, and 1/2 "DevOps" but took the 50% pay cut so that I could focus more on evangelism, I don't really like tech work anymore, I don't feel like my contribution is significant enough just being a grunt. During AWS Re:invent I signed us some major customers, but we had a bad outage, so they fired me for the AWS outage. Really. I think it was an excuse, and pg, or some other YC advisor told them to fire me and take back the stock options. After I pointed out how jacked up this was, they offered to bring me back as a contract evangelist, but I hold grudges.
    • bb88 2039 days ago
      Thank you, I will not be doing business with PagerDuty (YC10) anymore.
      • expathacker 2038 days ago
        Why? This was a decade ago, and they were basically children when it happened. The product itself is a fine product and I've used it with about 35 consulting customers since, there aren't too many other options, and none of them are as good as PagerDuty.
        • bb88 2036 days ago
          As long as there's an option, I'll use it. Unless they have made amends by screwing you out of $20 million, there's no reason to support this kind of behavior, even if it happened 8 years ago.

          If they were children, why were they running a company? Why would anyone join a company run by children?

      • atmosx 2038 days ago
        Me too. My team bought a subscription a few months ago, I'll try to push a switch to a competitor.
    • anitil 2039 days ago
      This sounds pretty painful, maybe not something you'd want to talk about. But if you're up for it I'm sure a lot of us would like to hear more...

      Edit to add: That link describes in fairly precise detail the nature of the person's death. If you think that isn't something you want to read, give it a miss.

  • Double_a_92 2039 days ago
    Definitely A. Can't argue against free lunch :D