Married for over 10 years. No biological kids together but we do care full-time for 2 kids. My wife and I get along great. I love her. We have fun together. It almost feels like we are friends more than spouses though. We sleep separate too because she snores and generally restless and I need quiet (ear plugs and a mask). I also only sleep 4 hours.
I think I am ready for a change. I have goals still in life. I'll never accomplish them or be given the chance to accomplish them. I've always locked myself away and worked on my ideas. Since being married I can't. I don't know when the last time was that I worked days straight hacking out a rough idea for a project. I miss that.
I've talked to my wife about it. She says she wants me to be happy, that I'm a great husband and if this is what I need to do she understands.
So why am I posting? I'd like thoughts on this? Did I miss thinking about this decision in some key aspect. Any light to be shed before I decide to change my life?
If she's really understanding about separation (but presumably also wants to be with you), she will also be understanding about managing your time spent on work or with her.
Figure out how to manage this and still be a good husband.
> Married for over 10 years. ... we do care full-time for 2 kids. My wife and I get along great. I love her. We have fun together.
Don't leave the most important person in your life just because you want to lock yourself away for days and work.
Stay together.
Work with her, try to get what you both need. Communicate.
I sympathize with your situation. Before you can get meaningful advice can you post how have you taken responsibility for the situation you are in?
My $0.02 - you should seek marriage counseling or help from a professional rather than a community that you irrationally feel close to but in reality does not know anything about your and more importantly your kids and wife’s situation. I think your wife and children deserve more than that for an outcome that could be life altering for everybody involved.
Regarding "friends", you don't say it, but are you having regular, reasonably enjoyable sex? If not, and it's due to her refusals, I'd leave. If so, she's a friend, or perhaps an adult child, not a wife. One can imagine medical exceptions, etc., but if she's not at least giving mercy handjobs, it's over.
Regarding "goals still in life", everyone differs, but I think later in life, those goals won't seem very important, compared to family. I had such goals, and even some minor successes you might have heard of. But ultimately there's no there there. Everything technical that you work on will be dust very soon. Read Ecclesiastes and absorb the lesson. (The common versions are hard to read, but there's a modern paraphrase that's very readable: Nothing New Under the Sun: A Blunt Paraphrase of Ecclesiastes by Adam S. Miller.)
Beware that there's almost no limit to how bad a divorce can turn out. Two of mine were very unpleasant. The third almost killed me, and arguably ruined my life. Your wife might turn vicious in a divorce--it happens. I work a full time tech job, and after alimony and taxes, I'm left with about US$4000 per year to live on. I supplement this by drawing from retirement accounts, with the 10% penalty. I'm not rich, so this stings. Other parts of the divorce, harder to describe here, are far worse.
Regarding interruptions, can you just go to a library or something and work there for a few hours at a stretch?
Finally, someone mentioned "earning" a divorce. I don't think this frame is productive. If your marriage is not working for you, and there's no reasonable chance that will change, you have the right to leave.
Good luck.
Luckily, I have a few weeks every year when my wife is in vacation with the kids away from home while I keep working. So I have absolute freedom again for a short time !
So yes, the first few days I use my free time to look at some technology or experiment that are on my backlog and this is great and I do enjoy it.
However, depending on how frantic the day is at work, I generally don't have enough stamina to sustain a full day work, followed by a few hours of self study at home. So basically after 1 or 2 hours, I quit and go to bed. And after a few days, enjoying my free time, the excitement subsides somewhat, I get bored and I miss my family.
So basically, what I concluded, that even if magically I was free of all family constraints, I wouldn't probably be coding all the time, and likely more miserable.
In your situation, before triggering the divorce, I would at least try to negotiate with your wife to try to have a week/a month with more free time, eventually away from home. It is possible you will not enjoy it as much as you think you would.
It doesn't have to be either/or. Look at the excluded middle.
We tried a middle ground to where we each have dedicated time each day for work and goals. However, this never implemented well. She would come in a bother me for the smallest things. I explained I need to focus and she just does it again 5 mins later. So I drop back and punt and hang out with her and the kids. When she needs to work, she gets that dedicated time. I think the main reason she is always on the phone or Skype or Zoom and therefore she is never interruptible.
Our goals in life are very different. The way we work is very different.
In my life, this has been a coping mechanism. A way to ignore deeper personal problems. I have spent thousands of hours retreating to a fantasy world of code where I am in total control. The more time I spend here, the more I want to stay.
This entire process started at an early age for me. A poor childhood. I turned inward. No friends. My validation and meaning came from coding.
I have created application after application, thinking I was solving problems or doing something meaningful, but these were just rationalizations to avoid confronting my demons.
Might this be a similar case for you? Is more time to code what you really need, or is it something else?
Fast forward to now. I'm over 40. I have loads of things I wanted to accomplish by now. Every day I start out at 4:30am good but once the wife and kids are up. There goes my productivity.
Plus, coding is all I have ever done. I started with c++ at 13 and to sit and write code for my own goals just brings me so much happiness. To see it working, see others using it. Hell, even banging my head against the wall solving problems makes me happy.
Would you walk into, say, a car dealership and ask for programming advice? Or would you talk to someone who programs for a living?
Technically if you asked enough car dealerships the same question you will get a mixture of right and wrong. If you ask just one you get just one answer, is it right or wrong?
I think your main point of seeing one is valid. We should consider doing that.
Not being able to hack out a project for days straight is simply unhealthy.
Here's my advice: Divorce your wife, and to feel solid in your decision going forward, write "I divorced my wife for this" at the end of the Github README.md for each of your stupid bullshit projects.
You have talked to her and she says she is "okay" with a divorce so she too can do her own things, thus there is nothing really keeping you two together except inertia.
Stay friends, live separately, and wait out the year before finalizing your divorce.
I was in your same situation 2 years ago; I had reached a plateau and wanted to lock myself away like I used and simply work on my ideas. I contemplated that I would never be able to do such a thing whilst married. In the end I decided I wanted to be married, and the only reason I was flirting with the idea of separation was the irrational belief that I couldn't do X whilst married.
You certainly can lock yourself away whilst married. Will it hurt your relationship? Yes, yes it will, but it won't damage it irreparably any more than going on a long overseas business trip or being deployed with the military for months. It puts a strain on everything, but its survivable so long as---you both want to be married to each other and can't stand the thought of divorce yet.
If you want a divorce, and she wants a divorce, then regardless of the reasons there is nothing to work on---just let the relationship dissolve as it is unwanted. Just be aware, that you won't just be losing your wife here---you'll be losing your best friend and you have to ask if you have enough friends to lose that one.
Life is all about compromise. If you don't want to compromise on anything, so be it. That means you will spend the rest of your life with yourself. Unless you find the perfect female clone of yourself, which doesn't exist. This is also valid for friends, family, etc. We're all different in this world.
If you do this, at least one person you love will grow to hate you.
What effect would this have on them? How would the events unfold in their eyes? Family.... family..... family.... and then: BOOM WTF JUST HAPPENED?
My wife read your comment and said "I don't know if your dedication would fade."
She remembers when we were first together and I was selling my software off to a company. I had only been in Silicon Valley for 2 weeks when we met. I hadn't ever had a Starbucks and for some reason I walked by one and stopped in....what a cute Barista.
Thank you. I think I need to really consider where I am at in life and if there is a way to satisfy us both.
I don't have specific advice for you, other than to say that I feel you on this, because I feel like this thread has been fairly one-sided thus far.
They mistakenly think they have fallen out of love with each other. How can you mistakenly think you have fallen out of love with someone? Well, people can mistakenly think they have fallen in love with someone, can't they? So why not the opposite?
A mix of sadness and relief, was certainly for the best. We continue to be great friends and talk as often as when we were married.
Yet "romantic" life is a huge issue for so many married couples. If I asked every one of my couple friends I get I would get a 100% or at least 99%.
Thanks for sharing. Helpful.
I think if you try to apply some of what is in the book, you may reconsider this idea of a divorce.
At least based on what you wrote here you don't deserve a divorce yet, you haven't earned it. You are contemplating one out of convenience rather than necessity. I have been divorced and am remarried, we've been together a little over 10 years total now and known each other for ~12. I can tell you getting a divorce should be the last resort, and it should be for reasons that are seriously unfixable. If you need to alter your lifestyle some to attain your goals (or at least try), do that with her and talk to her about it. For example if you want to do a marathon coding thing, ok, take a 4-5 day sabbatical to isolate yourself and work on an idea, no harm there. She'll work with you on that, especially if she sees it makes you happier.
If there are other reasons, like there is no love, you fight all the time in front of the kids, there is abuse, my answer would be different. But even now, go to couples counseling and see how you can figure it out before divorce. At the same time, if you are just set on being free of responsibilities and don't care, than you are right to get a divorce cause you would be a horrible spouse to someone (that doesn't make you a bad person in anyway, it just may be who you are). One thing I have learned, to stay married you have to sit down and renegotiate things every so often, because we all change as we age, so be open, talk about how things are different and figure out a new norm that makes both of you happy. This is why I highly suggest getting some outside help, they help you figure that out and negotiate it the first time.
Divorce sucks. It is the greatest destruction of wealth in America and is a horrible contentious process that is many times avoidable (but not always). I have seen friends (more than one couple) both agree they are getting a divorce and both say it will be totally amicable and they already have everything figured out. That lasts until they start doing the real math and realizing asset splits, retirement accounts, new rent, car payments, house, dog, bank accounts etc. Suddenly things get a lot less nice and people get hurt more than they already were which just feeds the fighting. And once attorneys are involved you will piss away $15-20k easily between you two, likely much more if there are decent assets to deal with, 6 figures on a normal 40 something year old couple that are moderately successful is not rare. Also, in my state like many others, the person with the greater income also has to pay the attorney fees (amongst other fees) of the person with the lessor income. It was designed that way to offset someone who made $250k/yr from taking advantage of the spouse who made only $50k/yr, but the way it is applied generally isn't so judicious. An example, my ex spouse and I had a difference of $20k a year in salary and I was ordered to pay all her fees, plus give her a bunch of cash and while we didn't qualify as a long marriage so no alimony, the judge punished me with way above normal child support. Also, take into account, you've been married what is considered "long" in most states (> 7 yrs), so someone will likely be getting alimony. Again, she can say she doesn't want it but if you are the major income provider she'll do the math later when her friends/family are talking to her and you will be paying it.
My whole last paragraph is to point out, do you really have it so bad as to accept all that as an outcome? I didn't even address the kid situation really, but that is even harder to deal with in many ways. So again, have you earned your divorce through attempting to fix everything for long enough with enough tools, resources etc? You may have in which case do it, and I wish you the best, but if you haven't please reconsider and figure it out for your own benefit.
The thing is she is ok with a divorce too. She has things she wants too. It would be uncontested and I think we just need to file in court. No need for attorneys.
Snoring: We have tried everything. Weight loss, exercise, no alcohol. I started wearing ear plugs and a mask. She had a CPAP machine too. She just doesn't stick with any of it.
Earning a divorce: I'm not sure how to answer this. I need to read what you wrote a few more times.
Divorce seems so simple on the face of it but I promise it gets complicated fast.
My ex and I had everything negotiated too until her mom and a friend got in her ear. We even had what was fair child support setup and already working. Than it turned into a battle after she talked with them.
As for earning a divorce. It means different things to different people overall. But to me it means you both have exhausted all practicle means to fix things and have put forth real effort for a sustained time. If you do this than that is when divorces usually are pretty easy because both of you know you put your all into trying.
I promised "till death do us part" and I feel bad that after all this time I want to do my own thing.
I know she will move back home and I may never see her again.
She doesn't like to live alone.
Look, I get wanting to work on your stuff. And I get how crazy it can make you when you keep getting interrupted. (Like, I get it from direct first-hand experience. "Please stop reading the internet to me. You're destroying all the space in my brain.")
But, bluntly, you sound like a very selfish person. You're measuring things only by the yardstick of what you want[1]. You need to start letting marriage change who you are, change you into someone who cares more for people than for things and projects. (In fairness, that took me a lot more than ten years.)
Don't throw your marriage away. If you do, for the reasons you said, I think you'll regret it. Instead, work on improving it, both from your perspective and from hers.
[1]: Yes, you've said that you asked her if it was OK with her. I think there are three possibilities: She's trying to put a happy face on it for you, she's mistaken about how much it's going to hurt her, or she's also unhappy in the relationship.
So perhaps I'm being selfish emotionally.
Regarding selfishness, it's good to do chores, sure. Dutiful. But the kids you care for are not much mentioned. You may matter more to them together-as-a-couple than you have predicted. So perhaps you are not selfish but detached - from their emotions, and from yours. Just a guess, I don't know you, but are you perhaps too much Apollo and too little Dionysus? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonian_and_Dionysian
Because that might also be also leading to a passion-free partnership. Plus, if the problem is too much Apollo, your solution is going to add more of that, and worsen the problem.
Thank you for the Wiki link. I will read it.
(I'm not completely unsympathetic, but I think you need to think harder about the full consequences of your actions on those around you.)
And yet, the way you speak about your marriage (and your reasons for wanting a divorce) still strike me as fundamentally selfish. Perhaps emotionally selfish, or perhaps that you're thinking about your marriage from a fundamentally selfish perspective. I'm having a bit of trouble putting into words why I think that, though, and how I think you should be different. So, maybe not much help...
I view it as growth. Ensuring if I need to find a job I can. Putting out the next game that keeps food on the table (so to speak, we aren't in any danger of that). Plus, she goes out with friends and shopping. It's sort of her outlet. Mine happens to be the coding for making a living and ironically an outlet.
If you think of more words, write them, as you said you are having trouble with exact words.
I would define love as "choosing to do what's best for the other person". I can't reconcile that with your reasons for wanting a divorce. Your focus is on you, not her. That mindset is what seems selfish to me.
Looking back I think I could've done better at least in the first one, where we were left with shared custody of kids.
Several points to take into account before making a decision like this:
1. It wasn't clear from your description whether you're going to share custody of those two kids. If you are (and if you cared about a kid long enough, even if it's not yours, you probably are!), then doing it while living separately (and, perhaps, each having a separate partner) is going to be a much bigger effort, which will negatively impact your ability to work on your own ideas. You'll pretty much do all you do today as a parent, spend significant time on commute, spend money, and then spend time, money and emotional energy with a new partner as well. If it ends up this way, it can feel very very limiting.
2. It's possible that your discomfort about living together with someone has more to do with your own habits, way of organizing your life and space and your thinking, then with the choice of a specific partner. E.g. you may run into the same problems with the next woman if you live with her. If you don't, dating while living separately, presents its own set of challenges and does take time and effort (you get some of the freedoms, but if you see each other regularly, time becomes an issue, compounded with a longer commute!)
3. Loved ones often play inspirational role. You get more time and freedom, but possibly less inspiration - will it work?
4. Some of the problems like you mentioned can sometimes be solved with more space. Have you tried moving to a bigger apartment or a house, where you'd set up a quiet workspace for your own projects? It may be worth ($$) investment. I actually regret that I didn't approach my relationship problems as "not enough space problems". Especially given that you describe your wife loves you and is supportive of your needs. Throw some $$ into the problem: make more space, make more time (e.g. hire a nanny, a housekeeper).
5. Take your 10-year old desires with a grain of salt. Are you sure you really want it, or is it just a memory from the past? You can test-drive it without separating permanently.
6. Enjoying the relationships is a skill. There are trained professionals who can help both you and your wife to improve that skill, called "marriage counselors". Definitely worth a shot.
7. If you're in the U.S. and were married for over 10 years, and your wife making less money than you (at least 20% difference), there are high chances she'll be eligible for lifetime spousal support. Think of monetary consequences and limitations they would impose (especially weighting it against "throwing $$ in attempt to improve things"). Consult with a divorce lawyer for more information.
8. Don't stress about it too much, if it ends up in a divorce, try to stay friends, collaborate if there's possible shared custody, and move on. Divorce isn't end of the world.