• SCdF 188 days ago

    For those of you who are not New Zealanders or familiar with its news landscape, Stuff is half a rung above The Daily Mail or The Express or whatever.

    I urge you to read other sources.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/12/air-new-zealan... is a slower paced and less click baity look at the situation (which includes links to Stuff's claims):

    > “This issue relates to a particular aircraft which is not yet certified to operate to China but was unfortunately assigned to operate our Shanghai flight on Saturday night,” the spokesperson said.

    You can believe them or not, but my experience has led me to believe nearly anyone over Stuff.

    • alainchabat 188 days ago

      Talking about Taiwan, they're trying really hard to attract foreign talents. (one big reason is that China is poaching all the talents here, but this is an other story).

      If you're interested, check their Gold Card Permit. It's a visa+redisent card allowing you to stay and work for anyone there up to 3years. The only requirement is to justify of a salary of 160k NTD/month(~USD 5210/month), anywhere in the world, if you don't earn that, try the skills application[1]. And about the article, they are now requesting feedbacks from the public for the next immigration bill [2], that will make even easier to apply fo the visa.

      [1] https://foreigntalentact.ndc.gov.tw/en/cp.aspx?n=128B875DE9C...

      [2] https://join.gov.tw/policies/detail/1b688f9c-5f05-47ce-ab56-...

      • lisachu 188 days ago

        It’s 2019. I think we can all admit that Taiwan is a real country, whether China likes it or not.

        • gambiting 188 days ago

          Doesn't matter. I work at a company that releases software there and we have to remove Taiwan as an option for a country when setting up your account or the product simply won't be allowed to be sold in China. Our personal views on the subject don't matter.

          • oliwarner 188 days ago

            You don't "have to". You freely forfeited your beliefs for a sale.

            Certainly lefty idealism but the West has a limited window of influence to improve how China projects its power.

            23m Taiwanese people depend on somebody saying no. To ignore the PRCs demands. We've already let 13m Chinese Muslims get sent to concentration camps. We broadly ignored the incorporation of Tibet. Great Firewall, political incarceration, no problem, China, just keep making our stuff and investing.

            Again, out window of opportunity to do something here is closing. Strong economic sanctions have to come quickly. But we also have to use every bit of defiance to resist behaviour that is clearly wrong.

            • anvandare 188 days ago

              People will avoid a fight they could easily win until it becomes a fight they will have to win. (By which time it might be too late.)

              Very roughly, the Western Ideal is to win wars by strength and decisive battles. While the Eastern Ideal is to win wars by endurance and maneuvering and, if possible, avoiding battle altogether. The latter is more realistic.

              (Permit me the pun: We may one day find ourselves readying for a Marathon, only to discover we've already lost the marathon.)

              • thaumasiotes 188 days ago

                > People will avoid a fight they could easily win until it becomes a fight they will have to win. (By which time it might be too late.)

                There is a good reason for this. There could be a thousand potential fights, all of which you would easily win.

                But if you had to fight them all, you'd get worn down, and probably lose one of them.

                • pjc50 188 days ago

                  > the Western Ideal is to win wars by strength and decisive battles.

                  I think a lot of historians would argue with you on this one, not least how the two world wars were both intended to be quick and decisive, but also since the invention of nuclear weapons what it actually means to "win".

                • dalbasal 188 days ago

                  "the West has a limited window of influence to improve how China projects its power"

                  There's an irony in that statement. The "limited window" is a window to project power, presumably. The current western take on Taiwan is that it's an independent country. That's not even uncontroversial in taiwan.

                  Regardless, the current position evolved from the earlier one: the Taiwanese regime is the legitimate Chinese regime.

                  It's complex and history-ridden.

                  • oliwarner 188 days ago

                    > The current western take...

                    ... is worthless if they allow the PRC to penalise countries, companies and individuals for just recognising Taiwan as a state. Or allowing PRC to takes military control of water and air space all around Taiwan.

                    We can recognise Taiwan all day long, as we have recognised Palestine for some 52 years. But until you get the local power to also recognise it, you're just whistling in the wind.

                    • lotsofpulp 188 days ago

                      Who is in the position to allow or disallow China from doing what it wants to do?

                      • oliwarner 188 days ago

                        We are, at every level.

                        Personally resist, ignoring political demands en-mass, refusing to open offices in a totalitarian state, international sanctions for actions against on neighbouring states and diplomatically agreed semi-autonomous regions (HK).

                        China is powerful but if they can't sell to us, all their plans are for naught.

                        • lotsofpulp 188 days ago

                          And if the world can't buy cheap things from China, then all the assumptions priced into the debt and economic growth will be wrong.

                          • oliwarner 188 days ago

                            That is inevitable.

                            Save an absolute travesty of human rights, China cannot avoid its swelling middle class. Economically, they have options to farm out their primary and secondary industries to their African interests but that is only a temporary stay on price.

                            Underwriting economic growth on a mythical endless future of exploiting consumerism seems plain absurd to me.

                            I know we're nowhere near post-scarcity but we have to start finding and testing better models of wealth. Globalisation isn't working.

                            Edit: That is not to say we cannot pre-empt the movement of China's existing industries, and do as they have, and heavily invest in the poorest parts of the planet. This is better but still not sustainable. As soon as you run out of people poor enough to make your crap for the price you need, you get massive inflation. We need to change ourselves.

                            • cmurf 188 days ago

                              Globalization is working precisely as intended, and it was inevitable. The question is what comes next, and what will its bias and imperfections be, and does it inhibit warfare?

                              It's an unsolved problem how any closed system, whether it's a nation with restricted trade, or a planet with unrestricted trade, transitions off a consumption based economy. Even in the U.S. it's 80% who live paycheck to paycheck, some live right at their means, some are massively in debt, some engage in way more conspicuous consumption because they can and the like the social reward and have no concern of the future. It wouldn't take even half of those people to bring down the current economic order if they were to instantly start saving what they should, rather than consume. And it would likewise be terrible for the whole system if there were a significant recession, because there's simply no savings slack available to tolerate it.

                • prewett 188 days ago

                  There are things more important than money. Maybe the China market isn't worth sacrificing one's values for. It's not like they want to you to succeed in their market, anyway. And if the company is willing to sacrifice its values, then clearly those weren't its actual values.

                  • gambiting 188 days ago

                    Well, China isn't our only market, far far from it. It's extremely niche in fact - but users have asked us to make a Chinese version of some of our products, so we did. Alternatively, we could have said to those users that we won't provide a localised Chinese version of the product because of political reasons. At the end of the day, I don't make these decisions - I'm just a programmer writing code.

                    • saiya-jin 188 days ago

                      Wouldn't it be enough to exclude Taiwan from the interface only for China-based IPs?

                      • gambiting 188 days ago

                        Well, it's a physical product. The version shipped to china is the only one that doesn't have Taiwan in the user creation menu.

                      • justtopost 188 days ago

                        Man, this kind of comment just baits godwins law.

                      • fipple 188 days ago

                        My values don’t contain anything about Taiwan. I’ll call whatever you want because I don’t think I have nearly enough contextual knowledge to know who is “right” and “wrong” in that conflict.

                        • jstanley 188 days ago

                          It's pretty obvious that the Chinese government is "wrong" on this one.

                          Whether Taiwan is a real country or not, banning references to it is just tyrranical.

                          Imagine if the US banned you from selling software that made reference to the lost city of Atlantis. Clearly wrong.

                          • degurechaff 188 days ago

                            I can imagine it, because US already doing that to Iran, Cuba, etc...

                            • jstanley 188 days ago

                              You're not allowed to sell software in the US that acknowledges the existence of Iran and Cuba? That does not sound believable.

                              • O_H_E 188 days ago

                                I believe it is not about acknowledging the existence, but making business.

                                • jstanley 188 days ago

                                  Well that's a different thing then.

                                  It is oppressive that the US government won't let free people do business with people in Iran and Cuba, but it's not the same thing as banning people from acknowledging that those places exist.

                            • chosenbreed37 188 days ago

                              > It's pretty obvious that the Chinese government is "wrong" on this one.

                              I don't think it is that obvious. Particularly if you take into account China's long history

                              • CogitoCogito 188 days ago

                                I can’t wrap my head around the idea that people don’t think it’s “obvious” that the ROC and the PRC are different countries. Neither side has exercised control over the others territory in almost 70 years. In fact the PRC has _never_ controlled Taiwan and the other territories under control of the ROC.

                                What reasoning would support the idea that the PRC represents a legitimate government and not the ROC?

                                • Markoff 187 days ago

                                  yep, the whole story it's actually reversed and ROC has the proper government for all China, PRC gov are just revolutionaries/separatists, not vice versa, sadly ROC don't have good cards in hand to play this game

                                  • CogitoCogito 187 days ago

                                    No the ROC isn’t the proper government of “all China”. The ROC is the proper government of Taiwan, Kinmen, etc. The PRC is the proper government of the mainland. There is no “one China” the encompasses both regions. That’s just a fiction promoted by both sides in attempt to legitimize military aggression.

                                • jstanley 188 days ago

                                  Regardless of any country's history, it is not reasonable to ban people from selling software that acknowledges the existence of a country. Even if that country does not exist.

                                  Even if you don't take a stand on whether Taiwan is a real country or not, it is wrong to ban people from selling software that purports that Taiwan is a real country. How is this not obvious?

                                • garmaine 188 days ago

                                  Actually no, your example is not "clearly wrong."

                                • reaperducer 188 days ago

                                  That kind of amoral capitulation only works until you want to make a product or service available in both countries.

                                  Then once China convinced the West that Taiwan isn’t a thing, next is Tibet, then Nepal, then the Philippines, and so it goes.

                                  • jobigoud 188 days ago

                                    Basically from my understanding: at the fall of the last Chinese dynasty in 1912 a republic was created. Then after the communists took power, that republic exiled to Taiwan, that was in 1949. Current day China is still trying to eradicate that original republic.

                                    • fwsgonzo 188 days ago

                                      You have a vast amount of knowledge at your fingertips. There is a difference between a dystopian authoritarian country like China, with "reintegration" camps for Uighurs and "re-education" camps for people who speaks out against the single-party system - and Taiwan, which doesn't.

                                      There is no both sides, and saying there is is incredibly disingenuous.

                                    • chrischen 188 days ago

                                      What values are those? The value of treating China as the enemy simply because?

                                      "The position of PRC is that the ROC and PRC are two different factions in the Chinese Civil War, which never legally ended. Therefore the PRC claims that both factions belong to the same sovereign country—China. Since, as per the PRC, Taiwan's sovereignty belongs to China, the PRC's government and supporters believe that the secession of Taiwan should be agreed upon by all 1.3 billion Chinese citizens instead of just the 23 million residents of Taiwan.[15] Furthermore, the position of PRC is that UN General Assembly Resolution 2758, which states "Recognizing that the representatives of the Government of the People's Republic of China are the only lawful representatives of China to the United Nations", means that the PRC is recognized as having the sovereignty of all of China, including Taiwan."


                                      Basically a bunch of the wealthy class fled to Taiwan, claimed the land, also claimed all of China and Mongolia (to this day), yet denied citizenship to the billions of Chinese people on the mainland (only overseas/wealthy Chinese were allowed Republic of China citizenship).

                                      • Aeolun 188 days ago

                                        I don’t think the origins of the country really matter. Present day Taiwan is a country in literally everything but name.

                                        That is silly in my opinion.

                                        • CogitoCogito 188 days ago

                                          I agree with you in principle, but I'd go further. The ROC certainly _is_ a country in name as well. It doesn't have relations with all the world's governments, but neither does e.g. the US nor the PRC.

                                          The origins aren't really that special anyway. The conflict between the PRC and ROC is really a conflict between two governments over borders. The correct parallel is something like India and Pakistan or North and South Korea. The PRC (mostly...also some people in the ROC) like to act like their case is some mystical historical wrong that must be righted, but it's really not special in any way. The PRC wants to annex its neighbor and uses propaganda in an attempt to make themselves look noble. It's a standard playbook.

                                          • chrischen 183 days ago

                                            let’s say there was revolution in the US right now because of the anti 1% movement. The 99%, having voting control of congress decide to enact some laws that greatly redistribute wealth from the 1%.

                                            Let’s say in order to protect themselves the 1% decide to all move to one city (new york), and take all their wealth with them, and form a new country out of this piece of the USA.

                                            Seems like a giant loophole because the 99% are still poor even though they’ve “won” the war for the US, but lost a crucial, albeit tiny, piece of land which contains the majority of US wealth.

                                            You can bet the 99% would fight to take back NYC as well as all the wealth sequestered there by the 1%.

                                            The fundamental reasoning behind China’s claim to Taiwan is not just the physical land, but also the claim of legacy wealth that was taken from China and moved there, which was why the revolution happened in the first place. A small but meaningful piece of the country cannot simply decide to setup a rogue government to avoid persecution from the law, just like how it would not be tolerated if a bunch of wealthy 1% decided to form their own country within the US (from US land they take) just to avoid being taxed.

                                            • CogitoCogito 181 days ago

                                              This is non-sense. Firstly stop resorting to weird hypotheticals when you can just let the current facts speak for themselves. The PRC simply has never governed Taiwan, Kinmen, etc. Secondly it wasn't the ROC that set up a rouge government, it was the PRC!

                                              Of course the PRC will say whatever to try to make it's claims legitimate (just as the ROC did in decades past), but none of it changes the fact that they are two separate countries and have been separate for almost 70 years.

                                              The PRC is trying to act like it's special, but it's just following the same playbook that countries have followed for thousands of years: claim some other country as their own because "reasons" and then try to make their political and military aggression somehow seem justified. But that doesn't change the fact that the PRC is just trying to take over another country when it could easily and fruitfully co-exist fruitfully with it. It's shameful and shameful that people like you would support such nonsense.

                                              Maybe as a summary here is my message to all those trying to argue for continued aggression between the PRC and ROC: Just stop and support an official peace treaty you power-hungry maniacs. Stop trying to pretend your support for a resumption of war between the states is justified when de facto peace has existed for so long. Just stop.

                                    • devoply 188 days ago

                                      We in the West should not tolerate this sort of behavior. I am sure if we wanted to we could force them not to do this by threatening them with sanctions on certain things.

                                      • lotsofpulp 188 days ago

                                        The "West" has priced in a lot of economic growth into its debt. They are in no position to threaten China with sanctions, which could reduce trade. Need to keep those 10%+ returns coming for the underfunded pension funds. It couldn't even do anything about Russia and Crimea, much less China.

                                      • sinuhe69 188 days ago

                                        I thought the solution is simple: just put China in brackets after Taiwan (China) and you should be fine? And don’t list them as “country”, use region instead!

                                        • bloak 188 days ago

                                          I think that's about right. It's just one of many cases in which you have to be careful with terminology in diplomatic relations. Other countries/regions that need to be named carefully include: Holy See, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Côte d'Ivoire, Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya (some of these examples are out of date). In some cases people in the country/region have a strong opinion; in other cases it's people in a different country/region that have a strong opinion. Unless you have a good reason for having your own opinion it's usually best to just go along with these things and save your time and energy for something more important.

                                          • Markoff 187 days ago

                                            FYROM it's already Northern Macedonia officially and approved by Greece, you should update your map

                                        • Aeolun 188 days ago

                                          Then you don’t sell in China. Simple!

                                          • Markoff 187 days ago

                                            i am doing passive aggressive approach, when i see mention of "mainland China" i fix it to "China" since i am not aware of any other China, so word "mainland" it's redundant

                                          • plugger 188 days ago

                                            Yea nah. In theory I agree with you. In practice I don't believe Taiwan has much time left on the clock. My expectation is that sometime in the 2020s Taiwan will be Crimea'd.

                                            • barry-cotter 188 days ago


                                              > Chinese commanders fear they may be forced into armed contest with an enemy that is better trained, better motivated, and better prepared for the rigors of warfare than troops the PLA could throw against them. A cross-strait war looks far less like an inevitable victory for China than it does a staggeringly risky gamble.


                                              > Easton estimates that Taiwanese, American, and Japanese leaders will know that the PLA is preparing for a cross-strait war more than 60 days before hostilities begin. They will know for certain that an invasion will happen more than 30 days before the first missiles are fired. This will give the Taiwanese ample time to move much of their command and control infrastructure into hardened mountain tunnels, move their fleet out of vulnerable ports, detain suspected agents and intelligence operatives, litter the ocean with sea mines, disperse and camouflage army units across the country, put the economy on war footing, and distribute weapons to Taiwan’s 2.5 million reservists.

                                              > There are only 13 beaches on Taiwan’s western coast that the PLA could possibly land at. Each of these has already been prepared for a potential conflict. Long underground tunnels—complete with hardened, subterranean supply depots—crisscross the landing sites. The berm of each beach has been covered with razor-leaf plants. Chemical treatment plants are common in many beach towns—meaning that invaders must prepare for the clouds of toxic gas any indiscriminate saturation bombing on their part will release. This is how things stand in times of peace.

                                              • adventured 188 days ago

                                                I don't disagree with the war assessment, it makes reasonable points.

                                                It doesn't consider the very plausible scenario where Taiwan chooses not to fight (or chooses not to fight for very long). Instead they choose capitulation as an ideal decision to spare the enormous destruction they'd suffer, so as to keep their relatively high standard of living intact. Among nations with at least 10m people, Taiwan ranks around #21 in GDP per capita with a very respectable $25k. They've built something nice for themselves over a long, difficult climb.

                                                China can play a long-term game of decimation, spanning years. They don't have to invade short-term, they can flatten Taiwan with non-stop bombing, terror-inspiring hits (when is the next air raid going to go off?!?), wait them out until inevitable capitulation. It's about long-term territorial gain and the national premise of unifying greater China, they can easily spare the loss of economic output from Taiwan's devastation. Just 15 years ago Taiwan would have been a huge share of Chinese output if unified; today that's no longer true and China is increasing the gap by the day. Who's going to stop the stand-off rain of missiles and bombing that can go on indefinitely against Taiwan? The people eventually give up, China has no need to invade to win a war.

                                                They'll approach it as a hundred plus year project as needed. The only thing that might change that style of thinking, is if Xi needs to prop up his position (through military adventure, gaining prestige from reclaiming Taiwan), which may be eroded if China's economy falters.

                                                • Aeolun 188 days ago

                                                  I don’t think any serious bombing of Taiwan would be tolerated by the rest of the world.

                                                  • YorkshireSeason 188 days ago

                                                    Who would fight for Taiwan?

                                                    The 1995-96 Taiwan Strait Crisis is illustrative in this regard: The Clinton administration sent two aircraft carriers and accompanying ships toward Taiwan. Beijing threatened a fierce response: if the U.S. Navy entered the Strait, it would face a "sea of fire." Washington turned the ships around. See [1].

                                                    China is a lot more powerful today that it was 2 decades ago.

                                                    [1] J. A. Bosco, The 1995-96 Taiwan Strait Crisis: Three What Ifs?. https://taiwaninsight.org/2019/01/26/the-1995-96-taiwan-stra...

                                                    • Aeolun 187 days ago

                                                      China is a lot more powerful every day. That’s not the same as saying they can expect to win if they challenge the US to battle.

                                                      Either way, I suspect US involvement in a scenario like that would be less direct.

                                                      • Apocryphon 188 days ago

                                                        They could enact sanctions and apply non-military pressure.

                                                    • barry-cotter 188 days ago

                                                      > Among nations with at least 10m people, Taiwan ranks around #21 in GDP per capita with a very respectable $25k. They've built something nice for themselves over a long, difficult climb.

                                                      The Taiwanese are aware of what waits for those who cooperate with the PRC. Look at Hong Kong. Where’s their freedom now? Look at Xinjiang, at the treatment of Falun Dafa. Taiwan will be colonised, again. First the Dutch, then the Japanese, then Guomindang and finally the CCP.


                                                      > After the Party seized power in 1949, Mao would systematically apply the same techniques to one group of Chinese after another: “landlords” and village leadership; gamblers, gangsters, and criminals; Christian congregations, Daoist temples and the Buddhist sangha; business circles, corporations, and stock-jobbers; universities, schools, and intellectual clubs; hospitals, aid workers, and relief organizations; minor political parties and independent political groups; workers associations and unions; clan groupings and ancestral schools; martial artists and Confucian hold-overs—any set of organized and self-governing citizens was soon a target of a struggle campaign. In time each would be destroyed or brought into a subservient relationship with the Communist Party.


                                                      > Today The Cause has flipped—officially—from socialist revolution to national rejuvenation. The Party works under the same schema but has shifted the “people” that Mao identified with specific economic classes to the nation at large.[6] Mass mobilization campaigns have been retired. But struggle and united front campaigns have not. Xi’s great corruption purge, the Uyghur labor camps of Xinjiang, the attack on Christians across China—these all follow the same methods for crushing and coercing “enemies” developed by Mao and the Party in the early ‘40s. “One Country, Two Systems,” interference campaigns in the Chinese diaspora, the guided, gilded tours given to Musk and his ilk—these all follow the same methods for corrupting and controlling “allies” developed by Mao and the Party that same decade. The tools have never changed. The only thing that has changed is the Party’s assessment of who is an "enemy" and who is part of the "people."

                                                      You’re quite right that if China puts conquering Taiwan above all other aims they can do it, if the US and Japan let them. If they back Taiwan up it’s not happening. The US is quite capable of defending Taiwan all by itself and if the US doesn’t back Taiwan up its credibility as an ally is dead.

                                                    • YorkshireSeason 188 days ago

                                                         only 13 beaches on Taiwan
                                                      Who says an invasion has to be of the mainland? Have a look at the location of Taiwan's Kinmen Islands on the map.

                                                      [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinmen

                                                    • eastendguy 188 days ago

                                                      Even if we ignore the military aspects that Taiwan, unlike Crimea, can defend itself for a while, there is a key difference that matters even more:

                                                      On Crimea at least some percentage (20%, 30%,...??) really wanted to belong to Russia.

                                                      In Taiwan, the amount of Taiwanese that want to be "unified" by force is 0%.

                                                      Good luck ruling a country that hates you. (Sure, it can be done by force, but at what price?)

                                                      • pjc50 188 days ago

                                                        > Sure, it can be done by force, but at what price?

                                                        Tibet would like a word.

                                                        • O_H_E 188 days ago

                                                          ...and till when? It surely happened before in history, but never lasted long enough.

                                                        • Apocryphon 188 days ago

                                                          Two major factors:

                                                          1. Amphibious invasions are hard. The Taiwan Strait is nothing to sneeze at, especially for a military with no recent experience in conducting one like the PLA/N.

                                                          2. Taiwan has a far more economic impact upon the global economy than Ukraine. Other nations would be far more disturbed by the disruption of a first world economy, than a developing one like Ukraine’s. I don’t think we’ve seen the loss of as an economy as significant as Taiwan’s in recent history.

                                                          • cjhopman 188 days ago

                                                            Isn't Taiwan in it's current position because it was Crimea'd 70 years ago?

                                                          • grecy 188 days ago

                                                            This kind of thing happens in a few places in the world.

                                                            If you go into Morocco with a map on your vehicle that shows Western Sahara as a separate country, you'll have a hell of a time with the Moroccan police/immigration. I met people that were detained for 5 hours because of it. Morocco want everyone in the world to believe Western Sahara is simply part of Morocco. I cut that part off my map before I got there.

                                                            I'm told same story for the border in the East between Egypt and Sudan. Egypt want you to believe it's a straight line, Sudan want you to believe it goes up a bit (making Sudan bigger). Again, I met people that had problems with this.

                                                            • dmurray 188 days ago

                                                              Taiwan (officially the Republic of China) don't agree that Taiwan is a real country either. The official position of the government of Taiwan is that all of China is one country, whose rightful government is currently based on the island of Taiwan, but whose land is 99% occupied by Maoist rebels.

                                                              "Admitting" Taiwan is a "real country" seems kind of sensible, but it's not compatible with the narrative of either the PRC or the ROC, and it's completely understandable that you shouldn't formally recognize as a nation anyone making such a ridiculous claim.

                                                              • thaumasiotes 188 days ago

                                                                > The official position of the government of Taiwan is that all of China is one country, whose rightful government is currently based on the island of Taiwan, but whose land is 99% occupied by Maoist rebels.

                                                                > it's completely understandable that you shouldn't formally recognize as a nation anyone making such a ridiculous claim.

                                                                I've heard more ridiculous claims. As a matter of history, this is completely correct. It's just that the rebels have really entrenched themselves.

                                                                This position is fundamentally identical to the position of a king-in-exile. Sometimes they made it back home. Sometimes they didn't.

                                                                • Markoff 187 days ago

                                                                  except they are not technically in exile, they are just in different province of same country

                                                                • ddeck 188 days ago

                                                                  It is indeed a somewhat ridiculous claim, but domestic constitutional restrictions aside, the enactment of the Anti-Secession Law in the PRC in 2005 has made it challenging for the ROC to claim that they are instead an independent country.


                                                                  • ardy42 188 days ago

                                                                    > The official position of the government of Taiwan is that all of China is one country, whose rightful government is currently based on the island of Taiwan, but whose land is 99% occupied by Maoist rebels.

                                                                    I don't think that's the sincerely held position of Taiwan anymore. However, maintaining it is part of their current détente with the PRC: it has threatened to attack Taiwan if it renounces it's claim to the rest of China (which would be a de-facto declaration of independence).

                                                                    • dis-sys 188 days ago

                                                                      > The official position of the government of Taiwan is that all of China is one country, whose rightful government is currently based on the island of Taiwan, but whose land is 99% occupied by Maoist rebels.

                                                                      According to the same government in Taiwan, Mongolia is not an independent country, it is a part of "the Republic of China". See its official map here [1].

                                                                      [1] http://www.chinayouth.org.hk/China/rocmap.html

                                                                    • TheChaplain 188 days ago

                                                                      You can and a lot do, but if you want to have any business with China then you have to do it the way they want it done.

                                                                      • quicklime 188 days ago

                                                                        Not just business, but if a country wants diplomatic relations with mainland China, then it needs to not recognize Taiwan as a country.

                                                                      • cjhopman 188 days ago

                                                                        That's an interesting position. It then follows that you believe we should consider the Crimean Peninsula as properly part of Russia?

                                                                        • dingaling 188 days ago

                                                                          I don't see how that follows. Taiwan has been self-governing for 70 years.

                                                                          If Kosovo could be classified as a nation after a few weeks of independence it's only hypocrisy to deny the same to Taiwan.

                                                                          • goblin89 188 days ago

                                                                            Thought experiment: imagine that during the communist revolution in old Russia, the non-communist elites fled to Kosovo. Subsequently, USSR claims that Kosovo is part of it, while Kosovo’s claim is, fundamentally, to the entire territory of Russia.

                                                                            That, from my understanding, has been the historic position of Taiwan vs. China, and why this conflict, while not causing a lot of violence now, could be less straightforward to resolve than a claim of an ethnicity to a geographic area.

                                                                            In the above alternative reality, could Kosovo be recognized as a separate entity counter to USSR’s desires? Maybe but the question doesn’t make much sense in the first place, since that (being a separate territory) would be almost the opposite of what Kosovo wanted.

                                                                            • akvadrako 188 days ago

                                                                              So you're saying if a region declares independence and gets foreign allies to provide effective military protection for X weeks/years, then the original country has lost any right to that land?

                                                                              You might like the idea, but it's not commonly held. For one thing it encourages armed invasions against weaker nations.

                                                                              • pjc50 188 days ago

                                                                                > So you're saying if a region declares independence and gets foreign allies to provide effective military protection for X weeks/years, then the original country has lost any right to that land?

                                                                                This is how the United States claims to exist, by the way.

                                                                                • cjhopman 187 days ago

                                                                                  I think the major difference is that on September 3, 1783 Great Britain itself recognized the independence of the United States. I'm not sure that any of Crimea, Kosovo, or Taiwan share that recognition of their independence from who they are claiming to be independent from (the ROC, in fact, doesn't even claim to be independent, they claim that the PRC itself holds no claim over mainland China and that it is rightfully the territory of the ROC).

                                                                            • colechristensen 188 days ago

                                                                              I think that if you believed in self-determination of people inside Crimea and put it to a vote, there is a decent chance the people would have chosen to be annexed making it a justified act (but this is not what happened). This is complicated by extensive propaganda and other manipulation on all sides, and thoughts about the rights of Ukraine as a whole.

                                                                              What is clear is that Crimea and Ukraine are being used as pawns in a global geopolitical conflict that has little to do with or concern for the people actually there. A significant portion of it is about power and popularity of leaders and parties inside their own state using the international conflict to bolster support.

                                                                              It is hard to not have a dim view of international politics like this.

                                                                              Taiwan is completely different situation. It simply does not belong to China. The rest of the world allows China to pretend differently but it is just words.

                                                                              • cjhopman 188 days ago

                                                                                If Russia ships 1,000,000 people into Crimea, and then forces an independence vote where those russians can vote, is that justified?

                                                                                If the ROC flees from mainland China and overwhelms the people of Taiwan and then claims that Taiwan is not part of the PRC, is that justified?

                                                                                Would Russia need to just wait some X number of years after it shipped in the people to force the vote such that it would then be justified?

                                                                                • Aeolun 188 days ago

                                                                                  If those people are properly residents of Crimea? Yes, I’d imagine so.

                                                                                  I’d have a hard time arguing against it anyway.

                                                                                • cjhopman 188 days ago

                                                                                  Do you believe that China should be a country ruled by its current government? Or should the ROC control it? If the ROC shouldn't control it, then why should they control Taiwan? Simply because the invaded it 70 years ago and seized control? If China seizes control back today, will you in 50 years argue that the remaining Taiwanese separatists should just get with the times and accept Chinese control of Taiwan?

                                                                                  • colechristensen 188 days ago

                                                                                    I believe that China, Taiwan, and everywhere really should be ruled by their respective peoples.

                                                                                    At least Taiwan seems to be doing a pretty good job of self-rule and nobody has a legitimate claim over that. Any gripes about 70 years ago should be pretty muted because most of the people involved aren't alive any longer.

                                                                                    • cjhopman 187 days ago

                                                                                      Who is a place's "respective peoples"?

                                                                                      How do you feel about Native Americans and their claims to various land in the USA and the policies around reservations?

                                                                                      How about native Hawaiian's various issues? Should Mark Zuckerberg be free to erect walls of whatever size he wants around his land and to seize the ancestral land of various native hawaiian's through the courts?

                                                                                      How do you feel about the sovereign citizen movement?

                                                                                      How do you feel about the state of Israel?

                                                                                      I think that your position trivializes the complexities of these situations.

                                                                              • taneq 187 days ago

                                                                                But if you do that, you've always been at war with EastAsia.

                                                                                • akvadrako 188 days ago

                                                                                  Even the Taiwanese government doesn't claim they are a separate country from mainland China; they both are say they're the rightful rulers over all China.

                                                                                  It looks a lot like an internal dispute and I don't think the rest of the world should be meddling in their affairs.

                                                                                  • mb_72 188 days ago

                                                                                    Nice in theory, but China goes out of it's way to force it's viewpoint on others outside of China and Taiwan (eg political interference in Australia, propaganda distribution in Australia, the whole South China Sea debacle where China actively tries to prevent ships navigating international waters, debt-trap loans to various Pacific and other nations etc etc) . The relationship between Taiwan and China is just one aspect of this, and you better believe there will be some kind of military action taken to defend Taiwan if China decides to go that way, something even more destabilising to the region. So, just 'staying out of it' and silent is not really an optimal option, IMO.

                                                                                  • triplesec 188 days ago

                                                                                    Spot the PRC PR army account created just for this HN post

                                                                                    • cjhopman 188 days ago

                                                                                      You realize that you are replying to a freshly made account that is spreading the ROC position, don't you?

                                                                                      • triplesec 188 days ago

                                                                                        Looks like I misread the post, thinking it said Taiwan was not a country. Not quite as terrible but still not ideal, freshly-created accounts for such.

                                                                                  • Symbiote 188 days ago

                                                                                    Are any airlines treating PR China similarly, by not referring to PR China as a country either?

                                                                                    • ghayes 188 days ago

                                                                                      This was the US viewpoint on China for a very long time.

                                                                                    • Simulacra 188 days ago

                                                                                      Can we just go ahead and recognize Taiwan as an independent, sovereign nation? This childish game of China's has gone on long enough.

                                                                                    • marapuru 188 days ago

                                                                                      Offtopic: Why does the website show me 4 similar images of aircraft from the airline. What's the purpose of this? Filling the empty news report?

                                                                                      • photoguy112 188 days ago

                                                                                        If only every airline would stop flights into China... see how quickly they acknowledge Taiwan as a country.

                                                                                        • vkou 188 days ago

                                                                                          If everyone didn't come to work tomorrow, <any political reform that you think is impossible> would happen overnight.

                                                                                          Good luck getting everyone on board.

                                                                                          • ImaCake 188 days ago

                                                                                            This is exactly what a strike is. It sometimes works.

                                                                                            • albru123 188 days ago

                                                                                              That's exactly how Velvet revolution in Czech republic in 1989 happened by the way...

                                                                                              • saiya-jin 188 days ago

                                                                                                Not at all. People were protesting (already for few years in fact), but if the government would decide to use military to suppress them, they would succeed easily. Army declared 100% support of the government. I still think CIA had its hands in the support of the opposition (that's exactly the type of work agency is supposed to do), but for a change it lead to something positive (and I am pretty sure they were not sure it won't end up in civil war like Yugoslavia).

                                                                                                Why government basically folded without resistance while actually holding the upper hand was explained as an attempt to avoid civil war. The divisive line wouldn't be through religions, regions, classes but through generations - fathers against sons, young wanting a change. So sanity luckily prevailed.

                                                                                                Central/east european slavic nations are just not that bloodthirsty, long experience of being subjugated under foreign powers (austro-hungarian empire in this case).

                                                                                              • mschuster91 188 days ago

                                                                                                Look at France and how much the Yellow Vest protests and their precursors achieved. The French have managed to keep government from enacting a lot of neoliberal crap.

                                                                                              • hk-mars 188 days ago

                                                                                                I would happend soon:)