I was kidnapped many years ago and in conversation with them (to calm them and myself) they regarded kidnapping their profession, literally asking me to allow them do their job.
You could feel they had a script for how things had to go. First they scare you to try to get you to say things from which they can get a feel for how much you're worth, then they throw a high number (I guess based on the previous step), negotiation starts, the ransom delivery and finally release.
Glad you were released, I'm sure it was an intense experience.
It reminded me of a book called "Never Split the Difference" by Chris Voss where he talks about his approach to negotiating hostage releases. The basic strategy is instead of saying "no" to the price, say some version of "How am I supposed to do that?" which communicates a willingness to negotiate but an inability to accept the price. The side effect is that it builds empathy as it sounds like you'd accept the price if there was any possible way of doing so.
The final move is to throw out a precise, random low ball offer like "$5,470" where it sounds like you've scrounged up all the money you can. The idea is that with kidnappers, time is money. If after a few days or weeks they don't get paid, the low ball offer sounds like better than nothing.
In some negotiations, he kept talking to them for months elegantly saying these empathetic "no" statements until they actually gave up and stopped guarding the captive.
It's a fascinating read that goes into other forms of negotiation too like salary discussions.
If you like to share this information: Which country was this?
I imagine someone has to be quite psychopathic (or extremely greedy) to do kidnapping. I would imagine it is usually very traumatising for the victims, regardless of how friendly the kidnappers might seem.
It was quite surreal, I was even lectured by one of them about being out at night, that I should be more careful since there's "bad people" out there and I was lucky to get caught by some good ones (!). I guess that shows what their frame of mind is, or how they excuse the whole thing to themselves.
Not more psychotic than most war veterans out there. Seeing kids, women or generally innocent civilians blown to pieces, machined down etc. numbs any moral compass. So unless somebody dies or they cut fingers or ears off, this might look like a good and OK job moral-wise to them.
For people who wonder 'but how do these organizations get all that £€¥$ to fund their terrorism acts?
Drug trafficking, robberies, kidnapping. Counterfeit products and human trafficking are also two more standard 'revenue streams'. In the case of ISIS apparently it was stealing and selling Oil. Depending on the country you live in, bank robberies either contribute to a gangs' income, or if funds local or international terrorism. This is the main reason police does its best to arrest them. The loss of a bank's £€¥$ is bad, threatening some bank employees and customers is bad, funding the next 'Sri Lanka' is far worse (I am NOT pointing fingers or taking sides - just using this example as it was the most recent).
A lot of terrorist organizations have state sponsors. Al Qaida began through sponsorship of the US and Saudi Arabia in an effort to bog down the pro-Soviet Regime then in power in Afghanistan.
Edit: Of course, illegal activities help to both supplement state funds and hide their source.
I worked for a tech company in the past that had a product that would help stop kidnappings.
We made a sale to the government of a large third world country. They made their first payment and we began to deploy, but obstacles kept arising and nothing more came from it. The subsequent payments weren't made, the product might have disappeared from their warehouse, etc., so we fled the deal.
As it turns out, half the government wanted to end kidnappings, while the other half was perpetrating them. Either side was quick to pocket any lose budget on its way to unwary vendors.
I was going to mention that ISIS also bootstrapped itself by looting the central bank in Mosul (that was the first time I had heard of them iirc), but it seems that may not have actually happened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_...
Let's point out that drug trafficking is only lucrative because it is illegal. Also human trafficking isn't immoral if you don't think that government should be able to lay claim on a piece of the earth, and counterfeit products are also not immoral because you are providing the same products (or similar) at lower cost.
drug trafficking - correct. Everywhere that e.g. recreational drugs have been legalized, the prices dropped. Of course, heroin and other drugs are not legalized, and I don't think society is in as much of a risk from recreational drugs, as much as it is from opioids (which some are legal with a doctor's prescription)
human trafficking - this is not "moving populations to some other location giving them houses", I think you got it all wrong. This is your mother/daughter being taken and raped many times per day by many men for many years, your son been cut to pieces and have body parts removed. Go see a doctor. You need help.
counterfeit products - you probably have created nothing in your life, so yes. Once you create something, let's see how you will like it if people copy your hard work and deprive you of income.
I think you are a troll, or naive-beyond-repair or just a horribe person.
Sometimes I wish HN had a 'block' mechanism, so you can block someone and eliminate their writings from our screens.
He’s not a troll (I.e. OP is sincere, not just trying to provoke) he’s probably a libertarian that forgot that HT usually refers to forced prostitution. (As opposed to coyotes moving ppl across borders)
While the OP’s point was not well articulated (assuming I’m right about his political leanings), this illustrates the importance of the principle of charity; I.e he’s not mental and/or unredeemable. He just has quirky a worldview
For the record, I disagree with OP on eliminating borders.
Kidnapping in the US is extremely high risk and low reward.
Kidnapping in the developing world is a different story.
In some places, kidnappings are now being conducted further down the wealth food chain targeting middle class victims at the maximum daily withdraw cash limit in ATMs.
Transactional, high velocity kidnapping,
Unlikely to be investigated and followed up by overwhelmed local law enforcement.
I only have one friend who was kidnapped and having a concealed weapon wouldn't have helped him. He had three guys pointing weapons at him before he even realized he was being kidnapped.
Ask a simple question, get a simple answer: the FBI exists to stop kidnapping and is singularly effective at this. If you kidnapped a soccer mom for ransom their budget for resolution is denominated in millions of dollars per day until it makes national news and then effective infinite after that point.
Among other things this destroys the infrastructure and well of expertise that sophisticated businesses require to function. If you could get a billion in cash, what would you DO with it? Your infinitely resourced adversary has every financial institution and bank teller in the country trained to detect you. If you are a sophisticated criminal organization and can launder millions, why sell the laundry to a kidnapper? Sell it to someone who will not get everyone involved burned to the ground.
Abundance of rich people and relentless police response in case of high profile kidnappings drops the risk to so low that rich peope in the US can show off their wealth in ways rich people from other counties would be mortified by.
"Four Soviet diplomats were kidnapped in September 1985 by a fundamentalist group called the Islamic Liberation Organization. Russia quickly dispatched its Alpha group, tasked with counter-terrorism hostage-rescue operations, to Beirut. Once the team learned that Arkady Katkov, a consular attaché and one of the four hostages, was killed, they responded quickly by tracking down and locating one of the kidnappers’ leaders (or relative it’s not clear). In order to send a clear message to the terrorists, Alpha group members castrated the hostage, cut him down into pieces and sent him to the hostage takers. They also threatened to kill more of the kidnappers’ relatives if the Soviet diplomats were not free."
If you think you are about to get kidnapped, the earlier you attempt to escape the more likely you will succeed. The longer you wait the harder it will get. So try to escape right away.
This sounds to me like reading the statistic backwards in terms of causation. I imagine people who can and are willing to try escape as soon as they can while people who either don't want to try or simply can't will never escape.
You could feel they had a script for how things had to go. First they scare you to try to get you to say things from which they can get a feel for how much you're worth, then they throw a high number (I guess based on the previous step), negotiation starts, the ransom delivery and finally release.
It reminded me of a book called "Never Split the Difference" by Chris Voss where he talks about his approach to negotiating hostage releases. The basic strategy is instead of saying "no" to the price, say some version of "How am I supposed to do that?" which communicates a willingness to negotiate but an inability to accept the price. The side effect is that it builds empathy as it sounds like you'd accept the price if there was any possible way of doing so.
The final move is to throw out a precise, random low ball offer like "$5,470" where it sounds like you've scrounged up all the money you can. The idea is that with kidnappers, time is money. If after a few days or weeks they don't get paid, the low ball offer sounds like better than nothing.
In some negotiations, he kept talking to them for months elegantly saying these empathetic "no" statements until they actually gave up and stopped guarding the captive.
It's a fascinating read that goes into other forms of negotiation too like salary discussions.
I imagine someone has to be quite psychopathic (or extremely greedy) to do kidnapping. I would imagine it is usually very traumatising for the victims, regardless of how friendly the kidnappers might seem.
It was quite surreal, I was even lectured by one of them about being out at night, that I should be more careful since there's "bad people" out there and I was lucky to get caught by some good ones (!). I guess that shows what their frame of mind is, or how they excuse the whole thing to themselves.
Drug trafficking, robberies, kidnapping. Counterfeit products and human trafficking are also two more standard 'revenue streams'. In the case of ISIS apparently it was stealing and selling Oil. Depending on the country you live in, bank robberies either contribute to a gangs' income, or if funds local or international terrorism. This is the main reason police does its best to arrest them. The loss of a bank's £€¥$ is bad, threatening some bank employees and customers is bad, funding the next 'Sri Lanka' is far worse (I am NOT pointing fingers or taking sides - just using this example as it was the most recent).
Edit: Of course, illegal activities help to both supplement state funds and hide their source.
We made a sale to the government of a large third world country. They made their first payment and we began to deploy, but obstacles kept arising and nothing more came from it. The subsequent payments weren't made, the product might have disappeared from their warehouse, etc., so we fled the deal.
As it turns out, half the government wanted to end kidnappings, while the other half was perpetrating them. Either side was quick to pocket any lose budget on its way to unwary vendors.
what
If a bunch of goons will say I can't, why can't I hire another bunch of goons that say I can?
Which is understandable because nowadays coyotes are being prosecuted as HT. (Hence his quip about borders)
human trafficking - this is not "moving populations to some other location giving them houses", I think you got it all wrong. This is your mother/daughter being taken and raped many times per day by many men for many years, your son been cut to pieces and have body parts removed. Go see a doctor. You need help.
counterfeit products - you probably have created nothing in your life, so yes. Once you create something, let's see how you will like it if people copy your hard work and deprive you of income.
I think you are a troll, or naive-beyond-repair or just a horribe person.
Sometimes I wish HN had a 'block' mechanism, so you can block someone and eliminate their writings from our screens.
While the OP’s point was not well articulated (assuming I’m right about his political leanings), this illustrates the importance of the principle of charity; I.e he’s not mental and/or unredeemable. He just has quirky a worldview
For the record, I disagree with OP on eliminating borders.
Kidnapping in the US is extremely high risk and low reward.
Kidnapping in the developing world is a different story.
In some places, kidnappings are now being conducted further down the wealth food chain targeting middle class victims at the maximum daily withdraw cash limit in ATMs.
Transactional, high velocity kidnapping,
Unlikely to be investigated and followed up by overwhelmed local law enforcement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ndrangheta#Modern_history
https://www.fabioitri.com/scomparsi_their_bodies_will_never_...
These numbers are wild. Why doesn't this happen more often in the US?
Among other things this destroys the infrastructure and well of expertise that sophisticated businesses require to function. If you could get a billion in cash, what would you DO with it? Your infinitely resourced adversary has every financial institution and bank teller in the country trained to detect you. If you are a sophisticated criminal organization and can launder millions, why sell the laundry to a kidnapper? Sell it to someone who will not get everyone involved burned to the ground.
Not sure if it was just cash or "we know where your mum lives be terrible if anything happed to that street".
"Four Soviet diplomats were kidnapped in September 1985 by a fundamentalist group called the Islamic Liberation Organization. Russia quickly dispatched its Alpha group, tasked with counter-terrorism hostage-rescue operations, to Beirut. Once the team learned that Arkady Katkov, a consular attaché and one of the four hostages, was killed, they responded quickly by tracking down and locating one of the kidnappers’ leaders (or relative it’s not clear). In order to send a clear message to the terrorists, Alpha group members castrated the hostage, cut him down into pieces and sent him to the hostage takers. They also threatened to kill more of the kidnappers’ relatives if the Soviet diplomats were not free."
https://blogbaladi.com/how-russia-responded-to-the-kidnappin...
I was totally expecting that line to be:
> we know where your mum lives and she'll be very angry when we tell her what you're up to
And that's a good thing.