Over the past few months I've been studying mushin (no mind) with the goal of understanding the concept better, and possibly laying out proactive steps one can take to put themselves in a position to experience mushin. I'm about 70% through all the readings (Unfettered Mind, Zen in the Art of Archery, Kakusei-Mushin, some Alan Watts videos on the subject, some Zen Koan videos, and more).
So far, it's very evident that the feeling of being in a "flow state" or "just doing it" is not something that simply happens out of nowhere. A precursor to that mind state is rigorous training and practice. Zen in the Art of Archery is a great read for getting a grasp on this concept. Basically, your goal is to perform without any thought, having a clear mind without any judgments or intentions, to the point in which you become one with the action/goal (anyone who has played sports may have experienced those games in which you almost black out during a great scoring streak, not even recognizing what's happening in the moment). BUT, to get to that point, you need to learn all the proper movements and formations and build muscle memory, which requires a ton of intentional thought and analysis. Basically, you need to learn as a stepping stone to unlearning.
The flow state of great athletes is not the type of autopilot you describe exactly, it’s not a totally automatic function. If you look at their comments it’s actually a state of hyperfocus. They may get there in a similar way to what you describe but the space they go to looks different than what you’re describing. “The rim gets bigger” if you will. The game slows down and becomes easier. They’re so in the moment that everything narrows, yes, but it’s that that makes decisions easier, the information they need is simply hyper available. Ask someone like Tiger Woods where the pin was or what the wind was doing on the 12th hole on a specific course during a win 15 years ago and he can tell you that. He can also tell you where contact was on the club face. Same goes for LeBron and others. It’s not that decisions are made by your body or muscle memory etc it’s that the decisions you need to make become easier to make.
I don't know if I fully agree with that, particularly the memory part of it. Certain people just have those types of memories that are not necessarily tied to flow states/moments. (see Lebron[1], see Sean McVay[2]). I don't think you're wrong in the way you describe how the game slows down, targets get larger, and decisions get easier to make. I think where we differ is your use of "the information they need is simply hyper available" vs. my take that this information resides in the subconscious and our natural feeling to analyze our actions/strategy in-game actually gets in the way of letting our subconscious take over. Perhaps we're arguing semantics here?
I played running back on my high school football team and based on my personal experience, I would say that on really good nights, when I achieved something that I would consider "flow state," it was closer to the information I needed being hyper available. I agree with you completely that my ability to move the right way existed in my subconcious all the time, but when I got into a flow state, it felt like the thing that changed was my interpretation of the world.
It would seem like the defense was moving more slowly, and like I was way more easily able to predict how fast they would get to a certain place and whether I could get there first, and when I got touched, I knew how to shift my body to minimize my chance of being tackled. And those nights, I always rushed for a lot more yards than the nights that I didn't feel that way.
As I'm describing it, it sounds like it might just be about semantics, haha! Maybe on those nights, I just let myself not think about it, somehow. As a high schooler, I was certainly not intrspective enough about it to turn it on and off, though.
But at least from my own subjective experience of those moments, it felt more like my perception of the world actually changed (almost like being on drugs), rather than that I was just calmly doing something I'd practiced a bunch of times, if that makes sense.
I wonder if we are actually describing the same experience in different ways. Maybe your "perception of the world changing" is my "letting your subconscious take over" (which would have the effect of the world looking/feeling different than normal).
I used to do kendo, which has a big focus on mushin.
> BUT, to get to that point, you need to learn all the proper movements and formations and build muscle memory, which requires a ton of intentional thought and analysis.
This is exactly it. You need a lot of practice ("perfect practice makes perfect") to lay a foundation where everything you do can be done well and properly even when done unconsciously. My personal theory is that once you have your fundamentals embedded at an unconscious level, it becomes simpler to enter a flow state (mushin) because there are fewer extraneous thoughts bothering you while you consciously focus on a task -- all of the little pieces of the task are "unconscious" and you don't have to worry about doing them properly, so then you can progress to embedding the next level of fundamentals.
If I remember correctly, it's not that the skill level needs to be high, but that the task has to be difficult enough to be challenging without being so difficult as to be daunting.
So you can still reach a flow state as a low-skill person as long as you flirt with the limits to your own skill level without getting frustrated (i.e. being highly skilled is not necessarily a prerequisite to be fully engrossed and challenged).
A bit more of a deep dive, but stuff on Daoism (esp. Zhuangzi) might be a nice complement too -- it influenced Zen (or Chan, as it was called in its original Chinese form). And not coincidentally, Mihalyi's son Mark works mainly on Daoism at UC Berkeley.
I black out very often when doing something repetitive when I used to drive during my commute I often blacked out for the entire commute and wake up after parking (The first time was quite scary). It also happens when cooking, running, walking, anything that doesn't require to think about something new if it's something I have already done in the past I can do it without thinking at all.
Yes not literal black out, more like a time black out. Usually I'm thinking about something, and by the time I finish thinking about that particular subject more time than expected has passed (usually it feels like one minute), and I don't remember driving or walking
"Black out" is always shorthand for "not recording memories." It's not necessarily dangerous, it just means the mind is not recording events to long term storage.
I'm glad you made this comment. The article's author made wu-wei sound like "do whatever comes natural". But, that misses the thousands of hours of deliberate practice bringing you to wu-wei.
Rock climbing is [citation needed, as they say] one of the easiest activities in which to attain flow.
It's an all body activity. It requires a host of tiny techniques that are best learnt by doing. It takes practice. To perform well requires a calm mind, even when the consequences of failure are evident which naturally triggers a disturbed mind.
I would agree. It is harder to get into "flow" mind-state when traditional or aid climbing. You need to stop to think when placing protection unless it's a very straightforward placement. In general, the more you run it out, the more time you can spend in "flow", although obviously there are potentially high consequences, and your mind will be screaming at you if you are, say, dangerously run out above a ledge, or if you placed protection absent-mindedly and now you are second-guessing how much you trust it. Free soloing is the extreme end of that: maximum flow potential, maximum consequences. Top roping is probably the best bang-for-your-buck in this regard: maximum flow potential, minimum consequences.
I've found acroyoga or other variants of partner acrobatics amongst the easiest activities to get into a flow state. I think it's because there is lot of novelty, a high-perception of risk (although is actually quite safe), and a high requirement for coordination. I would describe it as literally forcing you into the moment. Whereas when I run, practice yoga, lift weights etc., my mind is elsewhere.
This is super interesting! I might have to see what the AcroYoga scene is like around town.
This may sound a bit weird, but sports with "mandatory flow" really appeal to me. Snowboarding being the canonical example I use when I talk about this. I'm by no means as expert snowboarder, and when I'm doing it I have to be 100% in the moment. The sport has a great physical feedback loop for me: if I allow myself to be distracted, there is an immediate violent reminder (as I wipe out). Krav Maga has this too, although its more bursty (lose focus during a drill, accidental hits happen)
25 years ago I thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail, and hikers there have a saying, "It takes more head than heel". I didn't believe it at first, until I met several thru-hikers over the age of 60, hiking 15+ miles a day, carrying 50+ pounds of gear, up and down over a trail designed intentionally to go valley to summit to valley to summit.
After a few weeks, I noticed that I was no longer looking at the ground. At least, not the ground right in front of my feet. My mind was able to see the terrain several yards ahead, and subconsciously my feet would know where the rocks are. This became an essential skill upon entering Pennsylvania, where the AT is more boulder field than trail. I started to call it "Radar feet".
Edit: it was 25 years ago... sheesh my memory. About two years before I heard about an obscure programming language called Python...
The featured runner's (Yuki Kawauchi) highest profile victory was the 2018 Boston Marathon. He and his agent put together an excellent strategy to take advantage of the horrible conditions to nullify his much faster opponents.
Very compelling article, and a strong counter to the idea that the no-mind state is void of intelligence. If anything, the mind of the master is more active than ever, but so thoroughly focused on execution that the meta-level has disappeard. There's no thinking about the thought process, no second guessing, none of the games the mind plays with itself. Only engagement with action so deep that one feels like "the hand of fate."
After reading about half of this article, I have two major thoughts:
1. It's interesting that a Japanese scientist would hypothesize that a high-performing athlete would be considered an "intellectual", since the Japanese word for "genius" can describe highly talented athletes as well as intelligent nerds. Sapir–Whorf in action?
2. I've seen strong evidence that "overthinking" athletic performance is negative; taking brainpower away from the subconscious and placing it in the frontal lobe is empirically proven to cause basketball players to miss shots and hurdlers to trip and fall.
Over thinking, or even just thinking before I learn with my body has always given me problems with physical activity, because I tend to create a bad mental model that I have to unlearn. This has slowed me down the most trying to learn how to fly gliders, and skiing.
One thing I've noticed is that people like myself explain physical activities with words, while people who don't have this issue explain by moving their hands and bodies.
So, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the very premise of motor skill coordination resides in the cerebellum, and is not cerebral.
This means that training muscle memory for autopilot and cruise control is about conditioning the cerebellum with training. In addition to other involuntary actions like sneezing reflexes, smooth muscle peristalisis and heart/lung functions, other voluntary functions like touch typing, hand writing and walking up and down stairs, walking in general, riding a bike, swimming the doggy paddle and all the other aspects of memorized, or repetitive movement, both fine and gross, get recorded into the cerebellum, in both the short term and for the long term.
This is why people can be born without one, but it's a severe impairment. I could be slightly wrong in how I'm relating the principles here, but I think that just about sums it up.
In response to 2, the article is talking about (and conflating somewhat) different types of thinking, not just actively thinking about movement in the moment of execution.
I can pick out at least three types:
- Planning training schedules;
- Self-teaching whilst practicing;
- Thinking on one's feet during actual performance.
This echos my own experience over past couple of months. Deliberate intellectual approach and introspection. I improved a lot when I started doing that. However, when I try to talk about it with my friends and trainers, they dismiss it. I don't expect them to have the answers, but they're not particularly willing to engage in conversation either. They don't understand what I'm talking about. The advice I always get "this is different, you have to feel it". Repeat repeat repeat until you get it. That never worked for me. Or rather, I work hard but the benefits are slim. I feel like I've been getting 30% gains from the training while I could be getting 80%.
This reminds me of the book Peak by Anders Erricsson who observed that the right kind of practice carried out over a sufficient period of time can lead to extraordinary improvement.
Interestingly, it seems to work for both physical and mental abilities and importantly at any age (although some abilities are easier to develop at a young age)
The kind of practice is critical -- he calls it "deliberate practice" -- a focused practice that is at the limit of one's abilities and by pushing near the limit, it eventually becomes the new norm and a new limit is developed further beyond.
By continuously iterating on this process, people have been able to develop skills previously unheard of. Fascinating book, thoroughly recommend it.
Another runner - marathon world record holder - Eliud Kipchoge.
“If you want to break through, your mind should be able to control your body,” he said. “Your mind should be a part of your fitness.”
As I see it - you have to believe yourself unconditionally.
I’m currently reading Josh Waitzkin’s The Art of Learning and I think this question of thinking, intuition, practice and flow and putting it all together is explored there at a great length, can totally recommend it if you’re interested in the topic.
Does this book explore what does it mean to think? This is a topic that I'm interested right now. It became clear to me that the way I think is different than a lot of people do. Most people seem to be the intuitive type. So how does a thought appear in your head? How do you link thoughts together and make a decision? One mental process will be good for training, another for coding. If one were able to articulate the process and describe the state of mind then maybe we can learn better.
I don’t think so. The book is about learning an adversarial skill, it provides analysis of Josh’s path as a competitive chess player and martial artist.
I read the first third of Tony Kuphaldt books on electronics (DC, Kirschoff laws up to thevenin, a bit of AC too), very nice as it's easy, not too fuzzy and not too concise.
I'm starting Griffiths electrodynamics because I feel I can swallow more theory.
Just yesterday I finally made a nichrome wire ring to cut non-scored glass bottles. Super impressive to manipulate matter like that.
[0] I'm not in a study friendly environment right now, so watching people do simple stuff on video was my main source of motivation and inspiration. I wish I can finally go full circle with more theory.
I might not have provided enough details, in the book Josh analyzes his path as a competitive chess player and a martial artist and provides insights he was able to gather from his experience. So I mostly commented regarding learning sport skills. It might provide some valuable points for learning something more academic, but maybe not as directly.
The author describes two school of thoughts on how athletes should perform: the first encourage conscious thinking about their action, while a second encourages the unconscious, flow-like practice. I think the answer lies in between.
One way to look at the problem is through Kahneman's system 1 and system 2 dualism: Some tasks are better done with system 1; the fast, instinctive, unconscious mode of thinking. An example would be optimizing your oxygen consumption while running or hitting a topspin forehand in Tennis. Other tasks, like planning your running strategy are better done by System 2, the slower, deliberative mode of thinking. The trick for performing is to use the right system for the right problem.
Personally, I experience this in two very different fields: Tennis and coding. In tennis, whenever I start thinking two much about my strokes, trying to consciously change them, the strokes' quality deteriorate. Similarly, whenever I play a match and lose myself in the zone while forgetting to consciously think about my strategy, about the deficits of my partner and myself, I start losing. Switching back and forth between these two modes is where I reach my potential. The same applies in coding. To work best, I need both the flow, but with pauses here and there to consciously think about the big picture.
To maybe make this more relatable, think about typing. How much do you type? How much do you think about it? Do you use your right thumb on the spacebar, the left thumb, or both? Why do you do it that way? Do you think you could type faster if you changed that?
It's these last questions that drive excellence in physical technique. Picking out tiny details in how we do things, then starting by consciously adjusting our technique, until it becomes unconscious.
I am not sure I agree with all of what the author states here.
The "self-learning" is what I do myself when I train in martial arts, with computer programming, and with any number of skills. I had my start with a martial art teacher for a few years, and now, I am going through a long stint of solo practice, as I completely rebuild how my body moves. My programming skills were self-taught.
However, wu-wei is not simply "just do it". There is a kind of natural, effortless, spontaneity that meditators, psychonauts, and others who have peak experiences might tap into from time to time. Even "just do it" has a subtle kind of interfering.
The thing is, it's the "self-learning" that eventually bears fruit when someone enters wu-wei, as it pertains to skill. The deliberate effort at self-learning and cultivation greatly expands the possible actions one can take when one stops interfering with themselves.
Interesting article. I kept reading hoping it would get to a strong conclusion or some clear definition, but just like athletes can't explain it, its conclusion was vague and all over the place.
Interesting read, but kinda sad that the runner in question was not interviewed for this piece. I think the points made are kinda vague and lack good examples to make a stronger case for this thesis.
They [the runners] are suffused with the Daoist ideal of wu-wei that sees effortlessness as the epitome of human action
I found Edward Slingerland’s “Trying Not to Try” very interesting in terms of making connections between classical Chinese philosophy and contemporary US/western thought about neuroscience.
So far, it's very evident that the feeling of being in a "flow state" or "just doing it" is not something that simply happens out of nowhere. A precursor to that mind state is rigorous training and practice. Zen in the Art of Archery is a great read for getting a grasp on this concept. Basically, your goal is to perform without any thought, having a clear mind without any judgments or intentions, to the point in which you become one with the action/goal (anyone who has played sports may have experienced those games in which you almost black out during a great scoring streak, not even recognizing what's happening in the moment). BUT, to get to that point, you need to learn all the proper movements and formations and build muscle memory, which requires a ton of intentional thought and analysis. Basically, you need to learn as a stepping stone to unlearning.
[1] https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/05/lebron-james-photographic-m... [2] https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/09/12/rams-sean-mcvay-remembers-...
It would seem like the defense was moving more slowly, and like I was way more easily able to predict how fast they would get to a certain place and whether I could get there first, and when I got touched, I knew how to shift my body to minimize my chance of being tackled. And those nights, I always rushed for a lot more yards than the nights that I didn't feel that way.
As I'm describing it, it sounds like it might just be about semantics, haha! Maybe on those nights, I just let myself not think about it, somehow. As a high schooler, I was certainly not intrspective enough about it to turn it on and off, though.
But at least from my own subjective experience of those moments, it felt more like my perception of the world actually changed (almost like being on drugs), rather than that I was just calmly doing something I'd practiced a bunch of times, if that makes sense.
> BUT, to get to that point, you need to learn all the proper movements and formations and build muscle memory, which requires a ton of intentional thought and analysis.
This is exactly it. You need a lot of practice ("perfect practice makes perfect") to lay a foundation where everything you do can be done well and properly even when done unconsciously. My personal theory is that once you have your fundamentals embedded at an unconscious level, it becomes simpler to enter a flow state (mushin) because there are fewer extraneous thoughts bothering you while you consciously focus on a task -- all of the little pieces of the task are "unconscious" and you don't have to worry about doing them properly, so then you can progress to embedding the next level of fundamentals.
He claims that Flow is (more easily) achieved when Skill level and Challenge level are both very high.
So you can still reach a flow state as a low-skill person as long as you flirt with the limits to your own skill level without getting frustrated (i.e. being highly skilled is not necessarily a prerequisite to be fully engrossed and challenged).
Otherwise what you're describing is Automaticity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaticity
It's an all body activity. It requires a host of tiny techniques that are best learnt by doing. It takes practice. To perform well requires a calm mind, even when the consequences of failure are evident which naturally triggers a disturbed mind.
This may sound a bit weird, but sports with "mandatory flow" really appeal to me. Snowboarding being the canonical example I use when I talk about this. I'm by no means as expert snowboarder, and when I'm doing it I have to be 100% in the moment. The sport has a great physical feedback loop for me: if I allow myself to be distracted, there is an immediate violent reminder (as I wipe out). Krav Maga has this too, although its more bursty (lose focus during a drill, accidental hits happen)
Thanks for the suggestion!
After a few weeks, I noticed that I was no longer looking at the ground. At least, not the ground right in front of my feet. My mind was able to see the terrain several yards ahead, and subconsciously my feet would know where the rocks are. This became an essential skill upon entering Pennsylvania, where the AT is more boulder field than trail. I started to call it "Radar feet".
Edit: it was 25 years ago... sheesh my memory. About two years before I heard about an obscure programming language called Python...
Great read on this here: http://japanrunningnews.blogspot.com/2018/04/how-it-happened...
1. It's interesting that a Japanese scientist would hypothesize that a high-performing athlete would be considered an "intellectual", since the Japanese word for "genius" can describe highly talented athletes as well as intelligent nerds. Sapir–Whorf in action?
2. I've seen strong evidence that "overthinking" athletic performance is negative; taking brainpower away from the subconscious and placing it in the frontal lobe is empirically proven to cause basketball players to miss shots and hurdlers to trip and fall.
One thing I've noticed is that people like myself explain physical activities with words, while people who don't have this issue explain by moving their hands and bodies.
This means that training muscle memory for autopilot and cruise control is about conditioning the cerebellum with training. In addition to other involuntary actions like sneezing reflexes, smooth muscle peristalisis and heart/lung functions, other voluntary functions like touch typing, hand writing and walking up and down stairs, walking in general, riding a bike, swimming the doggy paddle and all the other aspects of memorized, or repetitive movement, both fine and gross, get recorded into the cerebellum, in both the short term and for the long term.
This is why people can be born without one, but it's a severe impairment. I could be slightly wrong in how I'm relating the principles here, but I think that just about sums it up.
I can pick out at least three types:
- Planning training schedules;
- Self-teaching whilst practicing;
- Thinking on one's feet during actual performance.
Interestingly, it seems to work for both physical and mental abilities and importantly at any age (although some abilities are easier to develop at a young age)
The kind of practice is critical -- he calls it "deliberate practice" -- a focused practice that is at the limit of one's abilities and by pushing near the limit, it eventually becomes the new norm and a new limit is developed further beyond.
By continuously iterating on this process, people have been able to develop skills previously unheard of. Fascinating book, thoroughly recommend it.
https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a27225884/kipchoge-is-read...
I read the first third of Tony Kuphaldt books on electronics (DC, Kirschoff laws up to thevenin, a bit of AC too), very nice as it's easy, not too fuzzy and not too concise.
I'm starting Griffiths electrodynamics because I feel I can swallow more theory.
Just yesterday I finally made a nichrome wire ring to cut non-scored glass bottles. Super impressive to manipulate matter like that.
[0] I'm not in a study friendly environment right now, so watching people do simple stuff on video was my main source of motivation and inspiration. I wish I can finally go full circle with more theory.
One way to look at the problem is through Kahneman's system 1 and system 2 dualism: Some tasks are better done with system 1; the fast, instinctive, unconscious mode of thinking. An example would be optimizing your oxygen consumption while running or hitting a topspin forehand in Tennis. Other tasks, like planning your running strategy are better done by System 2, the slower, deliberative mode of thinking. The trick for performing is to use the right system for the right problem.
Personally, I experience this in two very different fields: Tennis and coding. In tennis, whenever I start thinking two much about my strokes, trying to consciously change them, the strokes' quality deteriorate. Similarly, whenever I play a match and lose myself in the zone while forgetting to consciously think about my strategy, about the deficits of my partner and myself, I start losing. Switching back and forth between these two modes is where I reach my potential. The same applies in coding. To work best, I need both the flow, but with pauses here and there to consciously think about the big picture.
It's these last questions that drive excellence in physical technique. Picking out tiny details in how we do things, then starting by consciously adjusting our technique, until it becomes unconscious.
The "self-learning" is what I do myself when I train in martial arts, with computer programming, and with any number of skills. I had my start with a martial art teacher for a few years, and now, I am going through a long stint of solo practice, as I completely rebuild how my body moves. My programming skills were self-taught.
However, wu-wei is not simply "just do it". There is a kind of natural, effortless, spontaneity that meditators, psychonauts, and others who have peak experiences might tap into from time to time. Even "just do it" has a subtle kind of interfering.
The thing is, it's the "self-learning" that eventually bears fruit when someone enters wu-wei, as it pertains to skill. The deliberate effort at self-learning and cultivation greatly expands the possible actions one can take when one stops interfering with themselves.
I found Edward Slingerland’s “Trying Not to Try” very interesting in terms of making connections between classical Chinese philosophy and contemporary US/western thought about neuroscience.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18050134-trying-not-to-t...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXQPL9GooyI&app=desktop
Kenneth leads the AI research in Uber. He had worked on Evolutionary strategies for machine learning, artificial Life etc.