• Rotten194 181 days ago

    For people who believe the marketing: why would a legitimate sysadmin tool include a cryptocurrency miner and a feature to turn off the webcam indicator light?

    This was used to exploit people, plain and simple. While I don't think blanket arresting people who downloaded it is reasonable (someone may have fallen for the marketing and used it for legit reasons), shutting down the C&C servers to disable it from working and aiding in exploitation & blackmail is a net good.

    • kauffj 181 days ago

      From a purely consequentialist perspective, it's not clearly a net good if it has a chilling effect on legitimate research, increases economic costs due to regulatory uncertainty, or has other negative second-order effects concomitant with arbitrary and overly subjective legal systems.

      From a deontological perspective, it's not clear that this is good if one of your values is clearly and consistently enforced law.

      • scoot 180 days ago

        > a feature to turn off the webcam indicator light

        I naively always assumed that a webcam indicator light was hard wired to turn on when the camera was in use. If it isn't, why on earth not?

        • __jal 180 days ago

          Older Macs had the indicator light hardwired. I don't know if they still do.

          > If it isn't, why on earth not?

          The same reason for nearly every other design defect in retail-grade hardware: cost vs. margins.

        • baroffoos 180 days ago

          >If it isn't, why on earth not?

          Because its simpler to do it in software and the users won't notice anyway.

          • xnyan 180 days ago

            In addition to more cost, if any part of the led indication circuitry were to fail then you also lost your mic. For some this may be preferred, but I can see some people not happy if the failure of an unrelated part took out their mic.

        • nested_callback 181 days ago

          For the people that think this is legitimate software, this is not legitimate software. It is sold and encouraged as malware, used to blackmail girls (barely women) - that's what "cam capture" is for - keylogger, general malware, backconnect proxy, auto-start and persistence.

          See https://unit42.paloaltonetworks.com/imminent-monitor-a-rat-d... for more details and screenshots/quotes of posts by the creator of the tool.

          This is _not_ for server administration.

          This is _not_ like PuTTY or Remote Desktop. This is like Blackshades or Orcus. It is malicious, only sold for malicious usage.

          • jascii 181 days ago

            I don't think anyone seriously doubts the intended, arguable unethical, use of IM-RAT. The question is whether authoring and or selling these tools is or should be illegal. I'd argue that would set a dangerous precedent allowing governments to go after any security researchers whenever they feel it convenient to do so.

            • nested_callback 181 days ago

              I mean, there's probably more than enough intent here for prosecution. There's a fairly significant difference in selling a RAT that does remote administration, and selling a RAT that includes bulletpoint features to evade antivirus detection, persist through removals, and other features explicitly against the wishes of the device owner while the author actively and exclusively only advertises on script-kiddie forums and provides advice and encouragement of malicious infections.

              I don't think I've ever seen people gone after for the former, even when it's been abused by miscreants.

              At least in the US, people already "go after" security researchers all the time (at least the companies not smart enough to realise just how much a well meaning email can save them).

              • dang 181 days ago

                Your comments in this thread are fine and welcome, but trollish usernames are not ok. They troll every thread the account posts to: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que....

                Do you mind picking a non-trollish username and letting us rename it for you?

              • jascii 181 days ago

                For what it's worth: I have tracked, managed, and recovered hundreds of devices using tools that were hardent against detection and removal at the express request of the device owners in enterprise, educational, and private settings. Mobile asset tracking is a thing. So yeah, there is a legitimate use for that too.

                • TheOtherHobbes 180 days ago

                  A key requirement under UK law is unauthorised access.

                  If someone explicitly asks you to hack their systems (and they have permission themselves), or if you want to do pentesting and hardening or your own systems, you should be fine.

                  The grey area here is how likely it is that someone would buy this tool for legitimate security analysis.

                  Most people wouldn't, which puts it on a slippery slope. A good defending lawyer should be able to make a good case for genuine legitimate use, but of course that's still going to leave some risk, not to mention a lot of stress and inconvenience before a case even gets to trial.

                • larssorenson 181 days ago

                  It is worth noting that there exists legitimate RATs that offer the bullet point features you've highlighted. The marketing issue is another problem entirely; these legitimate projects are usually open source on GitHub or posted on public blogs.

              • msla 181 days ago


                > Robbins v. Lower Merion School District is a federal class action lawsuit,[2] brought in February 2010 on behalf of students of two high schools in Lower Merion Township, a suburb of Philadelphia.[3] In October 2010, the school district agreed to pay $610,000 to settle the Robbins and parallel Hasan lawsuits against it.[1]

                > The suit alleged that, in what was dubbed the "WebcamGate" scandal, the schools secretly spied on the students while they were in the privacy of their homes.[4][5] School authorities surreptitiously and remotely activated webcams embedded in school-issued laptops the students were using at home.[6][7] After the suit was brought, the school district, of which the two high schools are part, revealed that it had secretly taken more than 66,000 images.[8][9] The suit charged that in doing so the district infringed on its students' privacy rights.[6][10][11] A federal judge issued a preliminary injunction, ordering the school district to stop its secret webcam monitoring, and ordered the district to pay the plaintiffs' attorney fees.[12][13][14]

                > The lawsuit was filed after 15-year-old high school sophomore (second year student) Blake Robbins was disciplined at school for his behavior in his home.

                Acknowledging that the school was found to have been in the wrong and that the courts came down on the side of privacy, is the company which sold the school district the software they used to violate privacy guilty of anything? Should it be?

                The company involved:


                ... said its software was intended to be used for theft recovery. Easier to recover stolen goods if the laptop can surreptitiously take pictures of its surroundings and send them home, see? Is that software inherently bad, like the software you're talking about is? It could certainly be used for the same thing.

                • ClumsyPilot 180 days ago

                  I remember that case, and I am surprised criminal charges were not considered against the school officials.

                  Back to the matter at hand, I think the installation process can serve as a litmus test. If the software requires effective ownership of the device for initial installation, it would be of limited use as malware. Typical DRM software has characteristics of malware.

              • pbhjpbhj 181 days ago

                >By seizing control of the website, police will have been able to "take a good look at what the site has been up to, including who has bought the illegal items", said Prof Alan Woodward, a cyber-security expert from the University of Surrey. //

                When did the law pass making owning software illegal, as opposed to using it for nefarious means? (Last time I looked CMA required use.)

                Anyone have details of the exact charge?

                • moksly 181 days ago

                  It’s not a U.K. thing it’s an Europol thing:


                  No idea what law it breaks, but apparently the developer of a similar Trojan got 30 months in prison in a similar case: https://thehackernews.com/2018/10/hacking-tool-luminositylin...

                  I’m sure glad that wasn’t a thing when I was a teenager and cult of the dead cow was cool.

                  • xtracto 180 days ago

                    Wow . Anyone remembers DivineIntervention windows software? I was so lucky to be alive in the golden years of the internet.

                    • rwmurrayVT 181 days ago

                      I met him at FCI Morgantown. He's fairly bright, but a bit.. off. He's very young.

                      • omginternets 181 days ago

                        >It’s not a U.K. thing it’s an Europol thing

                        I really don't mean to flame-bait, but I've noticed HN has a mild pro-EU/anti-Brexit bias, so I would be remiss if I didn't draw attention to the fact that this is part of what Brexiteers are against.

                        Here we (apparently) have a case in which the law of the land is at odds with EU regulation. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to research how EU regulations are drafted and ratified.

                        Disclaimer: I'm a remoaner, but I'm also trying to understand just WTF is going on.

                        • dfawcus 180 days ago

                          I'm not aware of any EU regulations relating to computer "misuse".

                          Also AFAIK Europol is a co-operation facility, not a front line policing organisation. It is a means by which the member states co-operate and share intelligence, but not (yet) a source of rules and regulations.

                          Also the UK relations to Europol is a a bit freestanding, and we opted out of the Justice and Home Affairs stuff, then asked to opt back in to making use of Europol.

                          • matthewheath 181 days ago

                            Not sure how UK law is at odds with EU regulation on this matter. The offences outlined in the article are covered by the Computer Misuse Act 1990 — specifically Sections 1 and 3.

                        • matthewheath 181 days ago

                          No charges seem to have been brought yet – but it's an offence under Section 3A of the Computer Misuse Act 1990 (CMA) to obtain articles for use in offence under Sections 1, 3, or 3ZA CMA, even if you don't actually use them.

                          Obviously, the prosecution would need to prove intent but it's possible the mere presence of the software could suffice for mens rea — people don't typically buy this software accidentally.

                          Presumably most people who bought the software will have used it, making a prosecution under S1 CMA more likely.

                          It's probable that the CPS will only charge people they are likely to get an S1 conviction from and discard any S3A charges as S3A charges will be difficult to prove.

                          • mirimir 180 days ago

                            What about HackingTeam, NSO Group, etc?

                            I guess that it's OK if you're a "government" user.

                            Edit: To unpack that a little, I've read that repressive/authoritarian governments have used these sorts of malware to harass, arrest, and kill people.

                            And furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if the UK government itself is using these sorts of malware.

                            • matthewheath 180 days ago

                              As in any area of law, (glibly) it only matters if you get caught.

                              The Security Services of the UK Government have statutory exemptions allowing them to use these tools. These statutory exemptions are contained within the Intelligence Services Act 1994 Section 5 and the Investigatory Powers Act 2016 Section 99.

                              • TACIXAT 180 days ago

                                That is exactly what it is though. The authors probably could have sold to governments (their tool may not have been sophisticated enough though) and never had any trouble.

                            • heyyyouu 181 days ago

                              This was my thought as well. It has to be some sort of UK law? But I can't find it. The laws apply to surreptitiously installing the software on someone else's phone or computer. But then owning (and/or buying) the software shouldn't be illegal and the site shouldn't have been able to come down.

                              Hacking tools aren't illegal by default, that I know of anyway.

                              • celticninja 181 days ago

                                I imagine it's dependent on how the software is marketed. If you advertise it as a way to spy on others and steal passwords and banking logins, then it's pretty obvious it was built and sold with that intent. I imagine it becomes more grey if there are people who use it nefariously but you market it as a security analysts tool.

                                Also it seems like taking down the website stopped the software working. If it was centralised then there is a link between the theft of bank logins and the associated fraud directly to the website. Of course it might just be dialing in and checking the license as opposed to the website facilitating functionality.

                                Edit. Just seen an archived page for the tool, looks like a legitimate network access and monitoring tool. If that's the case then arresting the dev seems excessive. I did note that the page provided support, so I wonder if there was some entrapment along the lines of "how do I monitor for bank logins ?" Perhaps with enough info to make it clear the tool was being used to perform illegal activity, and that support is what fucked the dev?

                                • joe_the_user 180 days ago


                                  A large portion of common law revolves around intent - I think the technical term is "mens rea" (mentioned by another poster).

                                  If a site sold knives as "neighbor killers", with the comment "use this and you can definitely kill your neighbor, $19.95", then all the same considerations would come into play. And knives aren't illegal, at least to cook with.

                                • matthewheath 181 days ago

                                  This is covered by the Computer Misuse Act 1990 — specifically Section 3A which covers obtaining articles for use with related offences covered in Sections 1, 3, and 3ZA of the Act.

                                  It's a crime to own the software intending to use it even if you don't actually use it. Arguably, the purchaser intended to use it at the point they made the purchase; people don't typically purchase software like this accidentally (of course there are obvious exceptions like perhaps security researchers wanting to decompile it to understand how to block it in the future, etc.)

                                  • pbhjpbhj 180 days ago

                                    I think it's 3ZA(1)(c) that's changed - by the Serious Crimes Act 2015 - in that this allows that an action can simply "create a serious risk of, damage of a material kind".

                                    AFAIR that's different to how the act was prior to SCA2015. Indeed this section including "material kind" strongly suggests that the original intent was that the Act would punish material damage, rather than a trumped up suggestion by the CPS (on whomevers behalf) that an act might be reckless as to whether it creates an increased risk of serious damage.

                                    This legislation seems to work like "well you went on a road near some property, which is exactly what a criminal who was going to destroy that property would do, so you're clearly guilty". It seems somewhat over-reaching to me.

                                    • matthewheath 180 days ago

                                      The whole of 3ZA is new — that didn't exist before the Serious Crimes Act 2015.

                                      However, they do have to actually take action and material damage is defined by s3ZA(2) with "damage to human welfare" (s3ZA(2)(a)) constrained by s3ZA(3).

                                      It is unlikely that the threshold for a charge under S3ZA would be met. The more likely charge is S1 (unauthorised access) or S3A(3) which makes it an offence to obtain any article intending to use it to commit, or to assist in the commission of, an offence under section 1, 3 or 3ZA — you don't even have to actually use the software to be criminalised, merely possessing it is enough provided the prosecution can prove your intent beyond reasonable doubt.

                                      You can read the Explanatory Notes for the SCA 2015 amendments that altered the CMA 1990 at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/9/notes/division/3/... for background on why these changes were made.

                                      • heyyyouu 174 days ago

                                        Thank you! This is extremely informative.

                                        • pbhjpbhj 179 days ago

                                          Thanks for your input MatthewHeath.

                                      • heyyyouu 174 days ago

                                        Thank you for this! Very much appreciated.

                                    • Symbiote 181 days ago

                                      The Europol press releases says the arrested developer and employee were in Australia and Belgium, so it's probably law of those countries that's most relevant. The website had Australian phone numbers.


                                      • jstanley 181 days ago

                                        > The NCA said properties in Hull, Leeds, London, Manchester, Merseyside, Milton Keynes, Nottingham, Somerset and Surrey were among those searched.

                                        Presumably there would have to be some allegation of UK law-breaking in order to get a search warrant for properties in the UK.

                                        • salad77 181 days ago

                                          No, just a mutual aid request from an agency recognized under law enforcement treaty. There are many agreements for mutual recognition and execution of legal process across national boundaries (normally added as part of trade treaty negotiations but sometimes in things like extradition treaties). Lots of FBI raids outside the US are conducted this way - local police do the raid and have FBI 'observe' them in action. In this case, an EU police force and a 5-Eyes nation like Australia will be zero-friction recipient of assistance.

                                  • jascii 181 days ago

                                    An article with a bit more details: https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/law-enforceme...

                                    From what I gleaned from that article, IM-RAT was publicly marketed as a remote management tool.

                                    The article further states: "With the amount of reports of this tool being used for malware and the discussion on illegal forums, it would be very hard for the developer to argue that he did not know how the software was being used."

                                    This seems pretty thin. Would the authors of say nmap be liable because people can/do use it for illegal purposes?

                                    Assuming judges signed of on the raids and domain seizure, I sure hope there was evidence of actual criminal activity beyond what is mentioned in the media.

                                    • rhizome 181 days ago

                                      >Would the authors of say nmap be liable because people can/do use it for illegal purposes?

                                      Don't give them any ideas.

                                    • atypeoferror 181 days ago

                                      What's amusing about all this is companies that offer the exact same services to state or corporate clients are allowed to operate with impunity.


                                      - Zerodium - https://zerodium.com

                                      - Exodus Intelligence - https://www.exodusintel.com

                                      - Hacking Team - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacking_Team (now dead due to the actions of a very skilled gray hat)

                                      • rahuldottech 181 days ago

                                        A snapshot of the website from October: https://web.archive.org/web/20191012003358/https://imminentm...

                                        What it looks like now: https://imminentmethods.net/

                                        Their YouTube channel is still up: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRgeFHip2Iz97P25_qGkPfw/fee...

                                        As is their Twitter account: https://twitter.com/imminentmethods

                                        From what I can tell, this is just server administration software, but I haven't taken a close look.

                                        Edit: Yeah, apparently it was just disguised as that.

                                      • mirimir 180 days ago

                                        Why the bloody hell would a firm selling this stuff commercially be so easy to track down and take down?

                                        I can't imagine how people are so clueless.

                                        I mean, is it like "Sure, we're doing iffy stuff, but it's all in good fun, so why would anyone ever bother us?"

                                        • MercuryRising13 181 days ago

                                          Wow,about time they started taking down those sites. No only if other places would as well.

                                          • blowski 181 days ago

                                            What was the software really used for? Did it have a valid use case?

                                            • eitland 181 days ago

                                              Check the archive.org link elsewhere in the thread. Seems like it was marketed like a remote admin tool for servers, not a stalking tool.

                                              Unless they have a history of specifically targeting stalkers with their marketing and/or aiding stalkers or something else I hope the case gets thrown out.

                                              Even then I hope the courts take a good look at this case.

                                              Note: I'm not very happy about stalkers, but we should stick to the laws and not go after people without a good reason.

                                              • dylz 181 days ago

                                                This looks like bog standard RAT software. I don't imagine any legitimate or valid use cases. Nothing special or unique as far as I can tell?

                                                • gotodengo 181 days ago

                                                  Pen testing is a pretty big industry. I've used a handful of RATs for different purposes including at least one which was professionally developed and purchased (through my employer anyway)

                                                  I'll add however I've seen more than one sketchy dev hide behind the "It's just server admin software" angle. I'm not familiar with the software from TFA so I can't comment where that one stands.

                                                  • jascii 181 days ago

                                                    Remote Access Tools have lots of legitimate use cases: I'm ssh'd into 3 servers as type this..

                                                    • nested_callback 181 days ago

                                                      Your ssh client supports binary re-packing to evade antiviruses, hidden monero mining, and webcam and microphone capture to hidden file with "methods to disable the camera LED"?

                                                      • Dylan16807 180 days ago

                                                        The comment was implying that any "bog standard RAT" doesn't have legitimate use cases. Not just this software.

                                                        Does ssh not qualify as one? If that's the answer you could have just said so.

                                                        • jascii 181 days ago

                                                          Lol, yes, I could do any of those things if I chose to do so.. Should ssh be illegal? Or shall we stick with the principal that "commiting crimes" is illegal, not "producing tools that can be used to commit a crime"?

                                                          For what it's worth: "methods to disable the camera LED" was not a feature, that functionality was provided by an external plugin.

                                                          • Quarrelsome 181 days ago

                                                            what if pretty much ALL your customers are criminals? That near enough the line for you yet? The moment you add that requested feature to disable the recording light on the camera of the targeted laptop. is that over the line yet?

                                                            How about if your customers request a function that encrypts the root C:\ and puts up a message with a linked bitcoin address? We still on plausible deniability?

                                                            • jascii 181 days ago

                                                              Please stop the "what if's". They are speculation and have no relevance to the available information about this case.

                                                              For me personally, the line of what constitutes ethical behaviour has been long passed by the authors of this tool. That is however completely irrelevant, the question is whether they acted illegally. I have a hard time seeing that based on the information available in the media.

                                                            • PeterisP 180 days ago

                                                              There's no currently active principle that "commiting crimes is illegal, not producing tools that can be used to commit a crime" so we can't stick to it - it's well established in many countries for many years now (the particular UK act is from 1990, so 29 years ago) that in certain conditions producing tools that can be used to commit a crime is a crime by itself.

                                                              Of course, that doesn't apply to all circumstances and all tools that might be possibly used to commit crime, and it's a valid discussion topic on where exactly the line should be drawn; but that line between crime and not-a-crime definitely has some "I'm just producing tools" people on the crime side of it, not only morally but also legally, and not in some indeterminate future, but for as long as some of these "tool producers" have been alive.

                                                              • jascii 180 days ago

                                                                Interesting! Just for my further education, could you quote the name of the act in question? I assume there have been a few past that year.

                                                                • PeterisP 180 days ago

                                                                  For UK, it's the Computer Misuse Act of 1990 at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/18/section/3A with things like, among other things, "A person is guilty of an offence if he supplies or offers to supply any article believing that it is likely to be used to commit, or to assist in the commission of, an offence under [section 1, 3 or 3ZA]." and "(4)In this section “article” includes any program or data held in electronic form." so it is quite explicitly about tool making - with the quoted criteria about the belief/intent separating whether it's a crime or not.

                                                                  Though it seems that I made a mistake about the age of that law - it seems that this particular section of the "1990" law was actually inserted in 2006 with the amendments introduced by the Police and Justice Act 2006 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/48/section/37 so it's old but not that old.

                                                              • dylz 181 days ago

                                                                I would imagine it didn't help their case that the author of the tool happily endorsed this external plugin?

                                                        • Quarrelsome 181 days ago

                                                          sometimes manipulative people install it on their partner's machines because they're paranoid and have a poisonous attitude to relationships.

                                                        • stebann 180 days ago

                                                          Good job UK

                                                          • dk3 181 days ago

                                                            Are they going to shut down Github next?

                                                            • Quarrelsome 181 days ago

                                                              I'm assuming these people were offering product and service as opposed to code.

                                                              Here's the old scrap of the site: https://web.archive.org/web/20191012003358/https://imminentm...

                                                              Bung some code whereever but make profit and market it and you've crossed a line.

                                                              • eitland 181 days ago

                                                                Currently downvoted but very valid point, ref the Sherlock tool posted the other day: it is not hard for me to imagine more bad uses for it than good, but that alone shouldn't make it illegal.

                                                                Same with guns.

                                                              • sschueller 181 days ago

                                                                So is the UK going to go after gun sellers and makers as well?

                                                                • rwmj 181 days ago

                                                                  Very much so, yes, and it's widely supported by the public. eg: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42430298

                                                                  • pjc50 181 days ago

                                                                    Bad analogy in the UK where handguns are entirely illegal and all other firearms are subject to licensing.

                                                                    • 2038AD 180 days ago

                                                                      >where handguns are entirely illegal

                                                                      Handguns aren't entirely illegal in the UK. If I'm not mistaken then, roughly speaking, what the law prohibits is rifles below a certain size. In the UK it is possible, for example, to legally own long-barrelled pistols and old flintlock pistols. Another caveat is that the ban doesn't apply in Northern Ireland.

                                                                      I don't think this really detracts from your point at all.