What I find the most interesting about it is that it doesn't try to rework the BEAM to fit in the browser but rather does the much more ambitious work of trying to compile something fairly optimized that won't bloat the frontend.
I like Javascript, a lot, but I would very happily see a future where people have more choices about languages to use on the front-end. My only fear was that everything was going to morph into a kind of Java Applets 2.0, where everything would just be a giant VM on top of another VM.
For the most part, languages aren't doing that though, they're putting in the work to do proper integration with "native" browser systems like the DOM/CSS. I'm optimistic about where language efforts like Rust/Erlang/C#/C are headed, I think these projects are going to be really good for the web overall.
> everything would just be a giant VM on top of another VM
this concern is real which is why we didn't just run BEAM c source through a WASM compiler and call it a day. The implementation here is to optimize compilation to WASM and avoid as much overhead as possible. We have footprint requirements for the compiled asset sizes in mind too.
> Combine the power, familiarity, and high-performance of C/C++ with the unparalleled reach of the web. With CrossBridge you can bring your native C/C++ from consoles and PCs to over a billion people on the web – across browsers, with no additional install.
WASM is very explicitly designed not to be another Flash Player.
My concern was that WASM would turn into another kind of Flash Player because devs would just cross-compile everything and spit out frames to a canvas instead of engaging with the web as a platform.
I'm happy that's not what Elixir, or Rust, or C++ are doing. Their approach means that the potential benefits of WASM even today are a lot higher than the potential benefits of Flash ever were. And future to plans to do things like share object and function references between WASM and Javascript push that potential even more.
If you're just concerned about taking a native C++ app and treating the web like a compile target, you've missed the point. The point is to take these languages and make them into first-class web citizens.
One thing I wasn't able to ascertain from the link: would this run your Erlang code with the semantics of a single-scheduler BEAM node (i.e. concurrently, but not in parallel); or does this use Web Workers to have multiple parallel schedulers?
Initially we’re not planning to support multiple schedulers via WebWorkers, but the runtime has support for multiple schedulers generally speaking. Since the compiler can target other platforms, we didn’t want to artificially limit all targets due to any particular target limitations. As far as Wasm is concerned though, once browser support for SharedArrayBuffer returns, then we’d be looking to take advantage of multiple threads.
Sure, I can't imagine any particular reason why that wouldn't work. That said, we don't have distribution implemented yet, since we are focused on a single node in the browser initially; so it depends on which comes first - SharedArrayBuffer being stabilized again in the browsers so we can enable multiple schedulers, or getting distribution implemented thoroughly enough to support the approach you mentioned as a workaround.
I think you can get more info from the video linked there. I don't recall the details but if it isn't Web Workers there might be something in Wasm.
I'm pretty sure it's intended to be able to run multiple schedulers. But I'm not the one building it so not sure.
I think this project is a great idea but I think it's overly ambitious to be reasonably feasible in a near-term timeframe as it's basically talking about re-implementing 20+ years and thousands of man-hours put into BEAM dev into the browser.
It's also competing time-wise with simply "compiling Erlang itself to emscripten/WASM", since computing capability will still scale over time in speed and bandwidth and memory capacity to the point that simply "being able to get ALL of Elixir in the browser" will outvalue "being able to run some subset of Elixir in a single-threaded context only in the browser" (assuming performance is not an order of magnitude different).
I was just reading another HN article discussing the fact that OLAP is going away simply because computers have gotten enough memory and databases have gotten fast enough at querying columnar data stores that it's no longer necessary to add the "optimization complexity" of OLAP to get reasonable data analysis performance.
AMD has the Ryzen Threadripper now, 32 cores with 64 threads... If CPU development continues in that direction, this will be a BIG win for Elixir but only if it can take advantage of more than one thread.
That all said, I'm sure a naïve recompilation of Erlang BEAM to emscripten/WASM might not automatically take advantage of those threads properly out-of-the-box due to the abstraction layer, so there'd also have to be some work there to massage the scheduler to use "real" threads "on the metal".
Am I understanding this right that it's actually implementing the actor model just like Erlang? It seems to have processes and you can send them messages.
The threads seem really lightweight, but how would some typical frontend benefit from this?
> how would some typical frontend benefit from this
At ElixirConf I built a simple supervisor DOM tree model. When we are ready to implement it for real we're going to experiment with mapping the DOM to a supervisor. Each node being an element. This way events and rendering take place in each node in the supervisor tree. Rendering would be diff based and merged its way back up. Events would be captured as messages in the idiomatic Erlang/Elixir way.
This is all guess work right now and we don't yet know what will be practical vs what sounds good in theory.
However, we are dedicated to the idea that the programming model of the BEAM is one that complex client-side applications will benefit from over what JavaScript current offers.
That sounds pretty close to what Scenic does for OpenGL-rendered UI.
Scenic has some interesting properties in that if a specific component has a code problem and fails/crashes, the supervision tree will bring it back to life. I'm curious to see what similar things one could do with Lumen for the web.
Components are already a very popular level of abstraction with Vue and React, probably others. So maybe there are useful things to bring from Scenic.
Oh wow sounds like a pretty fundamental overhaul of the current DOM model. Then again, various virtual DOM diff implementations have shown they can improve working with the DOM a lot.
Yeah, the undertaking would be quite extraordinary if they could get it working. Something tells me that this is going to take a few years to develop (preemptively giving a "bravo" if it could be done sooner ;) )
There is a db_mon-esque implementation within the source and ultimately this is where the demo will live but for now (and the purposes of that demo at ElixirConf) I went in a different direction
For me, the main benefit would be the ability to use a concurrency model other than the event loop.
In Elixir, I can reason about the code being run in one process as though it were synchronous, because it kind of is. But I can do that without blocking anything else, which is also pretty important.
It will run Erlang and Elixir. So anything you like or dislike about working with those languages should carry over. I find them delightful, mostly have experience with Elixir.
Asynchronous and event-driven code is already a fact in the browser so working with an ecosystem that is designed for that may prove a better experience.
I'm hopeful. Also, concurrency, staying of the render thread if possible. There's lots of fun to be had there.
I didn't mean to nitpick about the definitions, I just wanted to say Erlang/Elixir would both be well usable as languages even without the OTP abstractions and tooling.
Is that the thing where after a number of reductions by a single process the BEAM will make sure another process gets its time in the sun? I believe so but I'm not familiar enough with the internals. They definitely spoke about reductions in the meeting I half-listened to.
microprocessor/embedded systems is a compilation target after the initial browser implementation. We're very aware of how awesome it would be to have the Erlang programming model without having to require an OS
The sample I tried in this post is only an Erlang interpreter. The whole compile chain is not quite ready from what I gather. It should be feasible at later point. I don't see why not.
Not really. It's called branding and because's limited words that naturally have meaning - and the best words are likely to be coopted for projects in similar fields - then it's not difficult for people to search "lumen elixir". Likewise if the site you're on is contextual to Elixir then just searching "lumen" will find the result you're looking for.
> It's called branding and because's limited words that naturally have meaning - and the best words are likely to be coopted for projects in similar fields
"best" based on what criteria? Searchability is certainly a factor, no? Branding is pretty useless if people can't find your product.
> then it's not difficult for people to search "lumen elixir". Likewise if the site you're on is contextual to Elixir then just searching "lumen" will find the result you're looking for.
Right... until someone else creates another Elixir project called Lumen.
I think at some point you have to agree that naming collisions are a problem. The question isn't whether naming collisions are a problem, it's how far we want to subdivide fields before we consider collision to be a problem.
I'd argue that you're drastically underestimating this effect: having to type "Elixir" is definitely going to prevent some people from finding this project. For example, if I'm working with Elixir, and I need to do some frontend work, and someone on the internet suggests Lumen: I'll search "lumen", find the PHP framework, and probably guess that the person on the internet didn't really understand what I was trying to do, which is not an unreasonable guess given the widely-varying quality of answers from randos on the internet. Sure, I could search "lumen elixir", but how would I know to do that if I didn't already know what it was?
Contrast this with other ways of measuring the value of a name. Lumen is a word related to BEAM? Why is that important? Sounds cool? Again, why is that important? Pronounceable/memorable? Okay, but actually there are thousands of words that are unused, that are both those things.
You can't trot out "it's called branding" as if that proves any of these things are important: highly successful brands like "Prozac" or "Kleenex" or "Clorox" show that even being a real word isn't important.
Nope, I'm not accusing you of saying that isn't a problem. I'm merely demonstrating that a problem starts at some number of keywords. I understand that your argument is that the problem starts at two keywords (in this case) not one. Correct?
Would you care to respond to why you think users will know to type "exixir" when they search for "lumen", or why you think that "lumen" is a good marketing term? All you've done is misuderstood one small part of what I said: you haven't actually responded to the other 3/4 of what I said.
Why is "Apple" a good brand name? A brand is what you make of it.
It makes no sense for users to hear about "Elixir Lumen" from outside the Elixir crowd - so if they search for "lumen" and don't see the result, if they're paying attention and have minimal competency using search engines, then they'd type in "lumen elixir" to find correct result.
Haha! Oh dear..
I think adding "elixir" to any search is pretty much mandatory. Phoenix, Nerves, Scenic. All need some qualifiers. Ecto might stand on its own.
Not sure who came up with it first, but there's also Laravel Elixir and Laravel Mix which caused some confusion for me when I first heard about Elixir but didn't know it was in the Erlang ecosystem.
Yes, I'm familiar with the hack that the community is expected to use every time they name the language in a searchable context. No better than prepending Elixir on a search if you ask me.
Yup. I've used Lumen a couple times over the past few years. Not sure why you would start a new project with that name, it's already well known and easily searchable.
Not sure why the OP's message was flagged, as it was a totally valid criticism...
But yeah, I just started a Lumen project last night for a quick API behind OAuth2. I sometimes have to append "php" or "laravel" to my queries, but that's to be expected considering I don't use Google.
I'm a big fan of Elixir and think Lumen's Elixir -> WebAssembly will be awesome, but I do wish they used another magic potion related name for it.
There have been many Lumens. Scott's and my hashmap-based Lisp was called that years earlier (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17962433). When I contacted the dev of a previous project to ask if he minded us using the name, he replied that there were so many that it didn't matter.
I clicked because I thought it's about Laravel's Lumen - turned out it wasn't, that immediately made me CTRL + W. IMO, bad name choice at this stage :/
Separate worlds.. I'd never heard about Laravel's Lumen until the two comments here. I had seen that they had Mix and Elixir which seemed unfortunate. Lots of weird naming overlap going on specifically between these apparently.
What makes it "abandomware"? It has commits as of 19 days ago and a release three months ago. Pretty sure Otwell continues to update and is a stripped down version of a very active framework.
Because I use Laravel and Lumen every day. My comment doesn't mean "Go change the name because some other project took it". I'm also very sorry you felt attacked immediately and had to declare Laravel's Lumen an abandonware project. However, I am surprised no one bashed the language it's written in (but the night is still young) :)
I understand that there's hundreds of millions of programmers and that we're bound to name-clash, it's just the nature of limited data-set that vocabulary represents. I don't offer a solution here, but this just goes to show how people think. And if people think like that, search engines might have a few thoughts on their own when it comes to words "Lumen" and "Illuminate".
That's not accurate.
WebAssembly is a different beast than JS. As far as I've understood it is executed differently and can do some different things. I don't see any reason why it couldn't be optimized more than JS either, though that's bound to take some time considering the amount of tuning that's gone into JS engines.
More accurately, you write Elixir, it compiles down to Wasm. Wasm is run by your browser as a more machine-friendly format than JS. It may well be faster.
I like Javascript, a lot, but I would very happily see a future where people have more choices about languages to use on the front-end. My only fear was that everything was going to morph into a kind of Java Applets 2.0, where everything would just be a giant VM on top of another VM.
For the most part, languages aren't doing that though, they're putting in the work to do proper integration with "native" browser systems like the DOM/CSS. I'm optimistic about where language efforts like Rust/Erlang/C#/C are headed, I think these projects are going to be really good for the web overall.
this concern is real which is why we didn't just run BEAM c source through a WASM compiler and call it a day. The implementation here is to optimize compilation to WASM and avoid as much overhead as possible. We have footprint requirements for the compiled asset sizes in mind too.
https://adobe-flash.github.io/crossbridge/
> Combine the power, familiarity, and high-performance of C/C++ with the unparalleled reach of the web. With CrossBridge you can bring your native C/C++ from consoles and PCs to over a billion people on the web – across browsers, with no additional install.
"Unreal Engine 3 Support for Adobe Flash Player"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQiUP2Hd60Y
My concern was that WASM would turn into another kind of Flash Player because devs would just cross-compile everything and spit out frames to a canvas instead of engaging with the web as a platform.
I'm happy that's not what Elixir, or Rust, or C++ are doing. Their approach means that the potential benefits of WASM even today are a lot higher than the potential benefits of Flash ever were. And future to plans to do things like share object and function references between WASM and Javascript push that potential even more.
If you're just concerned about taking a native C++ app and treating the web like a compile target, you've missed the point. The point is to take these languages and make them into first-class web citizens.
1. run multiple nodes on one machine (i.e. manually create Web Workers each with their own copy of Lumen); and then
2. write an erl_dist alternative-carrier protocol driver that uses worker.postMessage()?
It's also competing time-wise with simply "compiling Erlang itself to emscripten/WASM", since computing capability will still scale over time in speed and bandwidth and memory capacity to the point that simply "being able to get ALL of Elixir in the browser" will outvalue "being able to run some subset of Elixir in a single-threaded context only in the browser" (assuming performance is not an order of magnitude different).
I was just reading another HN article discussing the fact that OLAP is going away simply because computers have gotten enough memory and databases have gotten fast enough at querying columnar data stores that it's no longer necessary to add the "optimization complexity" of OLAP to get reasonable data analysis performance.
AMD has the Ryzen Threadripper now, 32 cores with 64 threads... If CPU development continues in that direction, this will be a BIG win for Elixir but only if it can take advantage of more than one thread.
That all said, I'm sure a naïve recompilation of Erlang BEAM to emscripten/WASM might not automatically take advantage of those threads properly out-of-the-box due to the abstraction layer, so there'd also have to be some work there to massage the scheduler to use "real" threads "on the metal".
The threads seem really lightweight, but how would some typical frontend benefit from this?
At ElixirConf I built a simple supervisor DOM tree model. When we are ready to implement it for real we're going to experiment with mapping the DOM to a supervisor. Each node being an element. This way events and rendering take place in each node in the supervisor tree. Rendering would be diff based and merged its way back up. Events would be captured as messages in the idiomatic Erlang/Elixir way.
This is all guess work right now and we don't yet know what will be practical vs what sounds good in theory.
However, we are dedicated to the idea that the programming model of the BEAM is one that complex client-side applications will benefit from over what JavaScript current offers.
Scenic has some interesting properties in that if a specific component has a code problem and fails/crashes, the supervision tree will bring it back to life. I'm curious to see what similar things one could do with Lumen for the web.
Components are already a very popular level of abstraction with Vue and React, probably others. So maybe there are useful things to bring from Scenic.
There is a db_mon-esque implementation within the source and ultimately this is where the demo will live but for now (and the purposes of that demo at ElixirConf) I went in a different direction
In Elixir, I can reason about the code being run in one process as though it were synchronous, because it kind of is. But I can do that without blocking anything else, which is also pretty important.
Asynchronous and event-driven code is already a fact in the browser so working with an ecosystem that is designed for that may prove a better experience.
I'm hopeful. Also, concurrency, staying of the render thread if possible. There's lots of fun to be had there.
Lumen seems to implement OTP patterns so that's why those things work on it.
To be fair you can go about it by just filling up a process mail box with tons of messages.
The sample I tried in this post is only an Erlang interpreter. The whole compile chain is not quite ready from what I gather. It should be feasible at later point. I don't see why not.
It's not a dealbreaker, but it's certainly a red flag.
"best" based on what criteria? Searchability is certainly a factor, no? Branding is pretty useless if people can't find your product.
> then it's not difficult for people to search "lumen elixir". Likewise if the site you're on is contextual to Elixir then just searching "lumen" will find the result you're looking for.
Right... until someone else creates another Elixir project called Lumen.
I think at some point you have to agree that naming collisions are a problem. The question isn't whether naming collisions are a problem, it's how far we want to subdivide fields before we consider collision to be a problem.
I'd argue that you're drastically underestimating this effect: having to type "Elixir" is definitely going to prevent some people from finding this project. For example, if I'm working with Elixir, and I need to do some frontend work, and someone on the internet suggests Lumen: I'll search "lumen", find the PHP framework, and probably guess that the person on the internet didn't really understand what I was trying to do, which is not an unreasonable guess given the widely-varying quality of answers from randos on the internet. Sure, I could search "lumen elixir", but how would I know to do that if I didn't already know what it was?
Contrast this with other ways of measuring the value of a name. Lumen is a word related to BEAM? Why is that important? Sounds cool? Again, why is that important? Pronounceable/memorable? Okay, but actually there are thousands of words that are unused, that are both those things.
You can't trot out "it's called branding" as if that proves any of these things are important: highly successful brands like "Prozac" or "Kleenex" or "Clorox" show that even being a real word isn't important.
That's obviously a problem then - never argued it isn't ever a problem, your argument is a straw man whether you realize it or not.
Would you care to respond to why you think users will know to type "exixir" when they search for "lumen", or why you think that "lumen" is a good marketing term? All you've done is misuderstood one small part of what I said: you haven't actually responded to the other 3/4 of what I said.
It makes no sense for users to hear about "Elixir Lumen" from outside the Elixir crowd - so if they search for "lumen" and don't see the result, if they're paying attention and have minimal competency using search engines, then they'd type in "lumen elixir" to find correct result.
But yeah, I just started a Lumen project last night for a quick API behind OAuth2. I sometimes have to append "php" or "laravel" to my queries, but that's to be expected considering I don't use Google.
I'm a big fan of Elixir and think Lumen's Elixir -> WebAssembly will be awesome, but I do wish they used another magic potion related name for it.
Lumens come and go.
Today it is essentially unmaintained: https://github.com/laravel/elixir
I understand that there's hundreds of millions of programmers and that we're bound to name-clash, it's just the nature of limited data-set that vocabulary represents. I don't offer a solution here, but this just goes to show how people think. And if people think like that, search engines might have a few thoughts on their own when it comes to words "Lumen" and "Illuminate".
Have an excellent and productive day.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/csharp/comments/ea5dnb/the_nightmar...
More accurately, you write Elixir, it compiles down to Wasm. Wasm is run by your browser as a more machine-friendly format than JS. It may well be faster.