Mac OS Catalina: more trouble than it’s worth (Part 2)


263 points | by _fs 286 days ago


  • ble52 286 days ago

    Am I the only person that doesn't have any significant issues with Catalina? I'll admit, some of the permissions-related pop-ups are a bit annoying, but overall it's been a rather stable macOS version for me (developer, working mostly in Xcode and JetBrains IDEs).

    • pilif 285 days ago

      For me, Catalina worked fine since I’ve installed Beta 2 last summer.

      Even the usual suspects, VMWare, Vagrant/VirtualBox and Homebrew survived the update just fine.

      I see no crashes (at least not more than the usual once-every-two-months need to reboot), nor other weirdness. Compared to Mojave, even the random Bluetooth disconnects I had with my Magic Trackpad stopped happening.

      Of course this is total non-news and I’m not going to publish a blogpost saying that Catalina is fine for me nor would that reach, much less survive on, the front page of any news aggregator if I actually were to write such a blog post.

      Unfortunately, we only read about people having issues and we conclude that everybody must have problems.

      • planb 285 days ago

        Same for me - I'm so glad those bluetooth problems have been solved! On Mojave, I had to plug in the lightning cable every few hours to reconnect the trackpad.

      • jtbayly 285 days ago

        I installed it on one computer, and no problems (other than the freeze during install that so many people had). However, that’s ignoring this question:

        > I didn’t even have to debate too much whether I should upgrade or not. The answer is no. The reasoning behind it is quite simple, actually, and it boils down to this: what Catalina takes away from me is more than what it gives me.

        And that seems to be the case for me, even though I have no Catalina problems. Lost MS Office 2011 on that machine. Gained... I can’t think of a single thing off the top of my head.

        Thus, wish I hadn’t upgraded.

        • w0utert 285 days ago

          That pretty much sums up my experience.

          Let's hope it was all worth it and Catalina is indeed a transitional release that serves no other purpose than laying some under-the-hood groundwork for the next release.

          I wouldn't say "wish I didn't upgrade" because both my 2018 Mini and 2015 MBP are working fine, but I agree with the general sentiment that from an end user perspective there really isn't any reason to upgrade, and apparently many cases not to considering the issues reported by others.

          Now that I'm typing this one thing that Catalina improved comes to mind: I have less issues driving my 5K LG screen through my BlackMagic eGPU. With Mojave, rebooting or losing the GPU connection would regularly result in black screen, and only a complete shutdown and cold restart would fix it. Don't have this problem anymore...

          • jtbayly 285 days ago

            Well, that sounds like a good reason to be happy you updated. :)

          • foxx-boxx 285 days ago

            File system support is changed, newer file system is the way better. Try LibreOffice, it’s free.

            • jtbayly 285 days ago

              APFS came out earlier, and I'm already using it on Mojave. Is that what you're talking about?

          • fredsted 286 days ago

            Not sure what the issue is either, once you add the necessary permissions for your apps, it doesn't ask again.

            Only complaint is Apple seem to ignore long-standing bugs that have been there for years, like monitors switching around every time you dock your MacBook. They should make a Snow Leopard-like release and clean out their bug tracker.

            • Wowfunhappy 285 days ago

              > They should make a Snow Leopard-like release and clean out their bug tracker.

              We actually had a Snow Leopard-like release just two years ago: High Sierra. It had some new features—as did Snow Leopard—but not many. (Lest we forget, Snow Leopard introduced Dock Exposé and Exchange support, just to name two.)

              And High Sierra is hands-down the best version of macOS since Mavericks. But afterwards, things regressed pretty quickly.

              The real problem here is the annual release cycle. The entire concept of a transitional release is misguided. If it's transitional, keep it internal to Apple until it's ready, and let Mojave live out another year in the meantime.

              • jen20 286 days ago

                This isn’t something I’ve encountered and I dock to three different desk setups most days. It’s typically good enough that it remembers the correct layout for multiple of the same type of monitor once configured. Is your monitor sending the serial number correctly?

                • fredsted 286 days ago

                  It has happened on several different monitors and MacBooks, even putting it to sleep and waking it can sometimes switch them, so I have to go into System Preferences and drag 'em around.

                  • jakear 286 days ago

                    This just started happening to me on Mojave, after I messed around with installing some third party USB managers to try to get my new keyboard and mouse to behave. Deleted the managers and returned the hardware, but some lingering issue crippled my multi-monitor setup. It’s particularly bad because I use one horizontal one vertical.

                    • BlackFingolfin 286 days ago

                      While I don’t have that particular issue, I have other issues related to external screens, with 10.14 and 2018 MBP: I usually run the laptop with closed lid and an external screen at work and at home; and use it in “laptop mode” during my commute. Now, sometimes (once a week?) when I plug it into the external screen, it just won’t wake up, unless I open the lid, and then it still won’t recognize the external screen. Have not yet found out a reliable way to resolve this, but I usually manage with turning the monitor off and on again and/or unplugging/replugging it, possibly a couple times each.

                      Much worse is that sometimes (once a month?) during this process macOS completely messed up all my open windows: they are all resized to a tiny size. And I have dozens or hundred of them open. This is horribly annoying, and didn’t happen to me before (in 10.11; I skipped 10.12 and 10.13, for reasons similar to the OP. Before that, I went from 10.8 to 10.11; before that, I never missed a release, often was running beta of the OS etc.; but starting with 10.9, too many issues made this undesirable).

                      I dread switching to 10.15; unfortunately, I will get a new MBP 16” from work, which normally I’d relish, except that there seems to be no way to use it with anything but 10.15. I’ll see if I can delay it until 10.16 is out and will pray that they started to prioritize bug fixes again, but I have little hope that’ll actually happen.

                      • TacticalTable 285 days ago

                        > I have other issues related to external screens, with 10.14 and 2018 MBP: I usually run the laptop with closed lid and an external screen at work and at home; and use it in “laptop mode” during my commute. Now, sometimes (once a week?) when I plug it into the external screen, it just won’t wake up, unless I open the lid, and then it still won’t recognize the external screen. Have not yet found out a reliable way to resolve this, but I usually manage with turning the monitor off and on again and/or unplugging/replugging it, possibly a couple times each.

                        I've previously had these problems, and they were made dramatically worse on Catalina. Each monitor has about 50% chance of correctly loading in, on what used to be 90%. My USB mouse (which is plugged in to the displayport monitor) also loads the incorrect drivers until I unplug and replug it.

                        • jen20 285 days ago

                          Ah, I’ve never tried in clamshell mode - long harboured fear of the thermal envelope from the PowerBook days.

                      • Hamuko 285 days ago

                        I think I heard someone complaining about this when docking to two identical displays (with identical model names in display settings).

                        • TimMeade 285 days ago

                          I have two identical setups, both with two 27 monitors and to make it worse one is horizontal and one vertical. Most of the time when i go to the other desk the monitors switch and I have to reset the orientation in display preferences. I have been fighting this for two years. Reset everything apple has told me to and no fix at all. Total PIA.

                          • chrisweekly 285 days ago

                            Tried 3rd party app "SwitchResX"?

                            • TimMeade 283 days ago

                              It's not the resolution it's the orientation that keeps getting flipped.

                              --- Well I take that back. It's been updated since last i used it a few years ago. There is display orientation savings now. It might now solve the problem, but it sure looks to make the fix much easier and faster. Trying it now. Thanks

                            • pi-rat 285 days ago

                              Same issue for dual display setup, my workaround is to label the cables and make damn sure I plug them in the same order and same port every time. If I do it wrong I’ve to do the display settings and rotate both screens routine..

                              Another option is to use the left side ports at work and the right side at home.

                              • TimMeade 283 days ago

                                Ports works SOMETIMES but since all 4 monitors are identical i still see confusion. I may try the left/right though. Currently all cables are hidden so i'll have to redo some to pull that off.

                            • jen20 285 days ago

                              I commonly do this (hot desking) and don’t have the issue.

                          • bengale 285 days ago

                            I don't get monitors switching, but the apps don't return to their position when I switch from docked to mobile which is a pain.

                          • filchermcurr 286 days ago

                            Most of my problems seem to revolve around using an eGPU with the laptop shut. I'll randomly get intermittent freezes where the display stops updating and user input stops being accepted. When I look at the logs, AMDRadeonAccelerator is going nuts.

                            The AirPlay icon in the menu bar also flashes between Sidecar, Airplay, and nothing at all. I had to remove it for my sanity. Speaking of Sidecar... performance is abysmal. Not on Sidecar itself, which is actually really snappy, but it brings everything else to its knees. Probably because windowserver goes nuts with CPU usage...

                            My monitor isn't correctly detected when using an eGPU, but it works fine with Thunderbolt. I had to create a custom EDID with known good values for it to work properly. Luckily this was something I could fix on my own.

                            Oh, and every few weeks Finder will just give up and die, which has the interesting effect of preventing the Feedback application from gathering logs. Nothing will compel it to come back to life and rebooting just sits there. The only way out is to hold down the power button. This one might be SMB related, as I have a lot of shares going on and Finder might not like something that is happening with them at any given time. I've never quite isolated what's going on.

                            I also get T2 crashes every few weeks. They must be making progress, though, because it seems like every update the crashes get further and further apart.

                            Other than that... it's the same old macOS as before for me.

                            • wlll 285 days ago

                              My problems are mostly around external monitors too. I have the new 16", but I had issues on my 2014 MBP running mojave too.

                              I have two external monitors, an Apple 27" and a Samsung 32. Sometimes the mac won't wake up my Samsung external monitor and it needs re-plugging to get it recognised (re-arranging my windows in the process).

                              Also, if the laptop sleeps and puts the external displays to sleep, when the laptop is then woken up there's a high chance that the non-Apple external display won't wake up in time for the OS to think it's there and it will temporarily remove it, re-arranging my windows again. These issues only happen on my non-Apple monitor, and happened the same when I had a Dell monitor too.

                              I used to have Finder isses too, though not Mojave related. I solved it accidentally by switching from Chrome to Firefox. YMMV.

                              • filchermcurr 285 days ago

                                Oh yeah, the oh-too-familiar multiple monitor horror! I finally gave up and just bought a single ultrawide. I could feel my preciously slim sanity slipping away day by day with the struggle to wake my computer up without incident. nervous twitch

                                Strange about Chrome! I've always been a Firefox user, so I never had that particular issue. Unless the billions of Electron applications count...

                                • wlll 285 days ago

                                  I figured it was a resource starvation thing. Didn't look into it once Firefox cured the issue,

                            • satysin 286 days ago

                              Stability wise it's been fine but it still has a few dumb bugs like Finder not letting me add smb shares to the sidebar (but afp shares work fine) and some UI bugs such as additional separator bars in context menus if you set Recent items to None.

                              Nothing terrible but lacking in some Apple polish.

                              The access prompts were a little annoying for the first two days but once everything has run and requested access it's fine. A few apps I have had to specifically give Full Disk Access as it seems every update it asks again and again and again.

                              But like you said stability is as solid as Mojave. However I don't use any legacy 32bit apps or extensions so haven't run into issues with regards to that. I feel most of the complaints I read are related to some old 32bit app which no longer works.

                              • flippyhead 285 days ago

                                It's funny, at least here on HN, I find the sky is often falling when it come to Apple but my personal experience is usually quite different. I don't necessarily disagree with the specific complaints, but they seem to take on an importance here that feels overblown.

                                • AJ007 285 days ago

                                  The keyboard thing is a legitimate issue. When you can’t type a key, it’s a problem.

                                  That said, I had been a lifelong PC user until 2015. I decided to buy a Macbook, the first model to use the reviled keyboard. Everything I read online said it wasn’t worth paying a premium for. Nothing I read said buy it. I bought it, and it replaced my 3 monitor PC with no loss of productivity. Everything I did ran better than I had expected (no gaming.) It was a vastly better experience than the Surface Pros I had used prior.

                                  You have to make your own judgements. Most people that used the old keyboard hate the new one. MacOS has issues, but so does Windows 10. I’m comfortable using Linux, but that is a whole other dimension of complexity on keeping everything working (but still vastly better than it was trying to use Linux as a consumer OS in the early 2000s.)

                                • Moto7451 286 days ago

                                  Nothing here. It’s been as easy an upgrade as I can remember. My company’s IT team kept sending emails not to upgrade but I haven’t had an issue. I think they mostly were tired of dealing with early release headaches from Chrome not asking for permission to control the whole screen for sharing. Google Meet worked just fine with Safari so I never noticed that problem.

                                  I do however dislike Music. I added iTunes back with Retroactive


                                  • dewey 286 days ago

                                    If you don’t rely on Apple Music theres Swinsian which pretty much covers all the good parts of legacy iTunes for me. I switched to it, imported my iTunes library and I couldn’t be happier. Really responsive developer too.

                                    I still use for my Apple Music streaming though.

                                  • sudhirj 286 days ago

                                    Mostly OK, but I'm caught pretty badly with the 16" automatic graphics switching bug - whenever I try scrolling on browsers it tries to engage the discrete GPU, which freezes the screen for a few seconds. Had to disable auto switching, and it hasn't been fixed in the latest update. I expect this will be fixed on the next Intel driver update.

                                    Other than that, things are fine. Not annoyed by the security, and Apple is clear that they're doing the security and privacy warnings across all platforms (same deal with iOS contacts and locations), so I do appreciate knowing exactly what each app is accessing.

                                    • florakel 286 days ago

                                      On my 16” I disabled “use hardware acceleration when available” in Chrome’s advanced settings. Chrome stops using the GPU altogether. I did not run into any performance issues, but getting less heat and longer battery life when using chrome.

                                      • MperorM 285 days ago

                                        Happy to hear I'm not the only one experiencing those freezes!

                                        It's embarrassing how long its taking apple to fix this. Apple's audio doesn't exactly treat me well either.

                                        It feels like we're starting to reach a point where linux 'just works' more often than mac.

                                      • Wowfunhappy 285 days ago

                                        The article kind of addresses this:

                                        > The remaining 2% [of messages I've received] are neutral. They’re from people who simply wrote me to let me know they have upgraded to Catalina and ‘survived’, and that they have no issues to report so far.

                                        > It’s interesting to me how — apart from the usual fanboys — I still haven’t seen any unequivocally positive feedback about Mac OS Catalina. I still haven’t found someone saying, Oh man, everything is so much better after upgrading to Catalina. I can take advantage of these new features, and my workflow and productivity are so much improved compared with Mojave or High Sierra. I’ve either read people saying, Yeah, I upgraded and nothing broke, thank goodness, or complaining about something they’ve lost or having changed in a disappointing way. What I haven’t seen is something I used to see more frequently in the past when a new major release of Mac OS X was introduced — enthusiasm.

                                        I think it's safe to assume that 2% statistic is lower than it should be due to response bias—"everything is basically okay" isn't usually worth writing about. But his point about Catalina lacking positives seems very salient.

                                        • toyg 285 days ago

                                          Yeah, I typically upgrade because I’m eager to get this or that new feature. There is nothing that attracts me to Catalina, and quite a bit that I’m scared of.

                                          I think I’ll just stick to Mojave until the next version comes along.

                                        • cageface 285 days ago

                                          Brand new MBP 16" 2019. Freezes up about every other time I open the lid for as long as a minute before I can actually use it. Hangs quite often for 10 seconds while I'm using it.

                                          Had similar issues with my 2018 after upgrading to Catalina. After rolling it back to Mojave they all disappeared. For me Catalina has been the worst MacOS release I've seen in 15 years of using Macs.

                                          • madeofpalk 285 days ago

                                            It's been completely fine for me. I didn't even really get that many permissions pop-ups.

                                            But I do agree, that there's real no reason to upgrade. "If it ain't broke, don't upgrade"

                                            • skc 286 days ago

                                              Now you know how some of us who rarely have issues with Windows feel :)

                                              • ble52 285 days ago

                                                I actually have a second PC desktop with Win 10 for gaming purposes. Good quality hardware components, regular software updates, no weird "antivirus" software, browser extensions, "cleaner" apps, etc. and it's working like a champ, no complains here as well :-)

                                                I think this whole "System <PutYourOsHere> is shit" is more of a user problem than a software problem ;-P

                                              • tabs_masterrace 286 days ago

                                                I think a lot of issues can be resolved by doing a clean install. Highly recommended on 3+ year old machines. macOS & Windows, suffers from the same issue, in that overtime, after you install a lot of things, and have multiple major upgrades, it can become a bit unstable. Think about all the state an OS has, and how it can changes over a period of years, and how states gets migrated and carried over into a new paradigm during OS updates.

                                                • sneak 285 days ago

                                                  No. I have had no problems with it on four machines. The permissions dialogs are welcome; I run Little Snitch and used to run Little Flocker. Little Flocker was a pain to configure. The new per-app, per-dir setup is much easier, and doesn’t require any install.

                                                  It stops random data exfiltration and ransomware dead. I don’t know why people are complaining about it.

                                                  • daveFNbuck 286 days ago

                                                    I haven't had any issues, and I appreciate being asked for permissions rather than assuming them. It makes me feel safer even if I haven't yet encountered a situation where I said no.

                                                  • jmull 285 days ago

                                                    No, we just don’t generate any online buzz by not posting about the problems we don’t have.

                                                    • 0x1221 286 days ago

                                                      Similar experience. Switching from bash to zsh was probably the most disruptive part of it.

                                                      • eru 286 days ago

                                                        One shouldn't have been running the bash that came with MacOS anyway. It was a decade out of date.

                                                        You can still install your own bash now, or even continue to run the old, obsolete version. But yes, it won't be the default.

                                                    • laktak 285 days ago

                                                      I'm happy for you. I have crashes every few days (system freezes then reboots). I'm not even sure where the problem is

                                                      > BAD MAGIC! (flag set in iBoot panic header), no macOS panic log available

                                                      • zippergz 285 days ago

                                                        Mostly fine for me. Every major update has some bugs and issues, but I haven't found it to be substantially worse than any of the others over the many years I've been using OS X.

                                                        • S_A_P 285 days ago

                                                          I will preface this by saying that for anyone who does have issues, it sucks. I empathize with you. Data loss is frustrating. Catalina seems to have been an especially large paradigm shift as well, so seems there are edge cases.

                                                          Having said that, Im curious if these folks went in blindly with no upgrade plan. ANY time you update ANY OS, you should do a bit of recon to know what you can and cannot live without, and take a safety copy of those items. The referenced email shows that maybe the person was a bit careless and over-reliant on the process "just working".

                                                          Re: barrage of security pop ups? I see the usual suspects (kernel extension needs approval, can the installer access an external drive, etc) but weren't most of these in previous versions of MacOS? Also, do you want Apple to choose for you? Unfortunately, there is an entire industry of shady individuals, companies and nation states dedicated to exploiting software. I dont think any software vendor enjoys worsening the user experience because the world contains @$$holes. I dont see a way around this for any OS.

                                                          I admit I jumped to Catalina on Day 1 but only after taking a backup of what I needed and ensuring I could wipe and revert to Mojave. Surprisingly, even apps that I had that were not Catalina compatible mostly all worked fine. I did lose a few 32 bit apps, but nothing I couldnt live without or didnt have an equal substitute for.

                                                          I only use a mail client for work email and that is outlook. I havent used the mail app in 10 years, and it sounds like it was the source of frustration for this user. I do think Apple should do better vetting upgrades.

                                                          iTunes split- I don't really notice any difference save for the UI. I dont have strong feelings about this app other than when I forget to specify a launch app for an audio file Im working on, iTunes is the default(I should change that...) and it is SLOOOOOOOOOOOOW to launch. Im guessing the music library database is the culprit here. Maybe they could async that part and just call the music library offline/verifying so that you can play the single file you clicked quickly...

                                                          • pdonis 285 days ago

                                                            > e folks went in blindly with no upgrade plan. ANY time you update ANY OS, you should do a bit of recon to know what you can and cannot live without, and take a safety copy of those items.

                                                            The "Part 1" article in the series addresses this: yes, we techies understand that we need to do this, but most people are not techies. Most users of Macs are not techies. They expect upgrades to Just Work, and they expect their machine to always take care of their data. That's a lot of what they think they are buying from Apple, which is not unreasonable given that that is (or at least used to be) one of Apple's main selling points as compared to Windows: they carefully integrate the hardware and software to make sure everything Just Works.

                                                            If Apple is no longer making that guarantee, why would you pay all the extra money for a Mac?

                                                          • sdnguyen90 286 days ago

                                                            Both Catalina and Mojave were the smoothest MacOS upgrades I've had for a very long time.

                                                            The only issue I have with Catalina is that I can't figure out how to disable password auth for sshd since the config is basically read only now. Ended up using Wireguard and disabling external SSH access.

                                                          • biztos 286 days ago

                                                            I lost the ability to print anything with graphics in it, on a MBP that's been religiously kept up to date for 5-6 years.

                                                            Funny thing is, I tend to forget about the graphics problem, because how often do you print anything with graphics in it? Then along comes a boarding pass and oh yeah other computer.

                                                            I also find it annoying that it obsoleted a bunch of my software, like MS Office, and constantly asks for permission to use my Desktop.

                                                            But other than that, seems fine! And I do like the new XCode goodies!

                                                            • altitudinous 286 days ago

                                                              The quality was terrible at the initial release, but the issues I experienced then seem to have been resolved now.

                                                              It should not have been released in the state it was in at the time.

                                                              • dunham 285 days ago

                                                                Catalina has been working fine for me since the release.

                                                                On my newer laptop, with Mojave I had a few Touch Bar related panics. I think they resolved that before Catalina came out.

                                                                My work laptop is Mojave. It still has the issue where it will lock up if I connect the external monitor while it is suspended. And recently it does this thing where the WindowServer task starts spinning and continues even if I kill off all the apps.

                                                                • goblin89 286 days ago

                                                                  Catalina works well for me, installed in November 2019 on a new machine. I keep an install of Mojave for software compatibility reasons. I believe it’s just in a separate APFS container, the setup described in an Apple’s guide.

                                                                  There were initially some issues with excess resource use by some system process relating to text input, fans spinning and all. This seems to be gone for a while now.

                                                                  Two-screen setup with Sidecar is worth it!

                                                                  • markandrewj 285 days ago

                                                                    This has been my experience as well, there were a few things I had to clean up post-upgrade, but the issues were not difficult to resolve. For the most part I just needed to update xcode, brew, and recompile some packages. I also waited a few weeks before upgrading though, to try and give package maintainers a chance to push any last minute updates that they did get in during the beta.

                                                                    • kitsunesoba 285 days ago

                                                                      It’s been just peachy for me across multiple machines, varying from MacBooks to iMac to a hackintosh tower. Similar usage here — mostly development tools and a couple of games. I make a point of avoiding dependence on very old software (or software made by companies that can’t be arsed to tick the 64-bit box on their compiler) so losing 32-bit didn’t really impact me.

                                                                      • mattkevan 285 days ago

                                                                        No you’re not the only one. I’ve been running Catalina since the early betas on all my Macs and haven’t had any problems.

                                                                        I’m sure that people do have legitimate issues, but Catalina doesn’t seem nearly as bad as some previous releases, such as 10.5 Leopard (or Leper as we knew it).

                                                                        I don’t even mind the security pop-ups - it’s reassuring that not everything has access to anything without my say-so.

                                                                        • uniacid 285 days ago

                                                                          I have not personally had any issues with it at all via upgrading, mainly 2 Macbook Pros, 1 2018 ed and 1 2015 ed so not sure if maybe it's has more to do with hardware compatibility issues some are experiencing which doesn't doesn't help your confidence level of Apple and future releases but I'm sure there can be fixes and lessons learned.

                                                                          • xyst 285 days ago

                                                                            Didn’t upgrade until the recent minor release (15.3?) and haven’t experienced any major hiccups described by others.

                                                                            Then again, I have a 2017 MBP and none of my daily apps (mostly developer related tools) were all 64 bit compatible from the start.

                                                                            I imagine other people in certain industries weren’t too happy when their outdated 32 bit applications created by defunct companies no longer function.

                                                                            • fineline6 286 days ago

                                                                              I had to Google around to see what the security issues are, I haven't seen a lot of pop ups, maybe I don't use apps that need them. Catalina came on my new MBP 16" and I am loving the whole experience, a serious return to form on the hardware front and a neat new feature in Sidecar, really useful. No problems here. Also primarily JetBrains IDE user.

                                                                              • szines 284 days ago

                                                                                I always wipe down my mac and a clean reinstall... Never had any issue with Catalina and with previous releases. macOS is great... Honestly when do you upgrade your Win or other type of machine... clean install, that's the key. ;)

                                                                                • nodesocket 286 days ago

                                                                                  I have intermittent, but frequent issues with external displays not coming up when plugged in, or display output (HDMI only) being corrupt (I have to reboot to fix corruption). Brand new 16" MacBook Pro nearly maxed out. I suspect the issues are with the AMD display drivers.

                                                                                  • low_key 285 days ago

                                                                                    I only have one problem with it. After disconnecting external monitors, it sets the brightness of the laptop monitor to 100%.

                                                                                    You know... plus the normal random osx crash that we're used to. Windows and Linux are more reliable these days on the desktop.

                                                                                    • flixic 285 days ago

                                                                                      It's an ok release. Occasional "This app wants to access your Desktop" notification is annoying, but otherwise very few problems. Also, I barely used iTunes before so can't say how much would I find missing in Music.

                                                                                      • monkin 285 days ago

                                                                                        No, you are not. I'm using macOS in betas for last 4 years, and most annoying thing is always the first beta release (e.g. broken keychain, iCloud, missing files, etc.). I don't even have permission-related pop-ups! :)

                                                                                        • xwowsersx 285 days ago

                                                                                          No, you're not the only one. Thankfully, I don't think I've ever ran into any serious issues with any OS release. I'm always a bit surprised when I see others report show-stopping issues.

                                                                                          • killjoywashere 285 days ago

                                                                                            Early releases rendered bluetooth "unavailable" on my original retina macbook, usually after closing the lid a few times. The only solution was rebooting.

                                                                                            • Aloha 286 days ago

                                                                                              I've had issues with a photos related daemon consuming all possible resources, and tone machine not working, beyond that, no real problems here either.

                                                                                              • jxdxbx 285 days ago

                                                                                                I've had no real bugs over the 3 Macs I regularly use. Some security-related inconveniences, but I think those are overall worth it.

                                                                                                • jxdxbx 285 days ago

                                                                                                  Oh there is one 32 bit app that I lost. It wasn't important.

                                                                                                • gempir 286 days ago

                                                                                                  No Problem here. I use for work and personal. Got zero issues that I can think off that weren't there in other versions

                                                                                                  • kevinherron 285 days ago

                                                                                                    I've got 2 laptops with no issues. One is a 16" that came with Catalina, the other is a 2018 that I upgraded.

                                                                                                    • xenihn 286 days ago

                                                                                                      It's running great on my newly-built Hackintosh. I'm still scared of upgrading my personal and work MBPs though.

                                                                                                      • 013a 285 days ago

                                                                                                        There are tens of millions of people running Catalina. Most of us aren't complaining, because it works fine.

                                                                                                        • eru 286 days ago

                                                                                                          I had some issues when I was running the beta, but it has been mostly stable for me since the official release.

                                                                                                          • benologist 285 days ago

                                                                                                            I didn't have any issues until I dived into my archive of DRM-free games and none of them work anymore.

                                                                                                            • davepeck 286 days ago

                                                                                                              No significant issues with Catalina here.

                                                                                                              • askafriend 286 days ago

                                                                                                                It's been completely fine for me. On both my personal and development machines.

                                                                                                                • rsynnott 285 days ago

                                                                                                                  Yeah, this has been one of my less annoying MacOS upgrade experiences.

                                                                                                                  • rado 286 days ago

                                                                                                                    No breaking bugs here.

                                                                                                                    • aganame 286 days ago

                                                                                                                      Nope. Catalina from the first release on 4 macs, all work fine. Also at work, hundreds of upgrades went through with no problems.

                                                                                                                      Apple and any hint of problems seem to be clickbait fodder these days. Almost seems like a coordinated pr effort.

                                                                                                                      • toxik 286 days ago

                                                                                                                        Absolutely not “coordinated pr effort.” Safari stops rendering entirely on iOS every now and then, seems like a pretty major bug no? Not fixed for like five releases. AirPlay 2 is an absolute joke, stops playing after five minutes on the dot in some situations. Again, no fix in like a solid year.

                                                                                                                        Good for you that you don’t have any problems, others do. Regression type problems.

                                                                                                                        • dfcowell 285 days ago

                                                                                                                          > Safari stops rendering entirely on iOS every now and then

                                                                                                                          Oh great, other people are having this too. Assumed it was only me.

                                                                                                                          • toxik 285 days ago

                                                                                                                            Utterly insane that Apple has dodged the bad PR on this to me, their software has absolutely degraded in quality over the last five years -- in ways that Apple software should never, like exactly the type of thing you paid the premium for. Such as a working f---ing browser.

                                                                                                                    • chalst 286 days ago

                                                                                                                      Also worth reading John Gruber's complaints, over and above bugs:

                                                                                                                      > But I don’t know a single expert Mac user who is not seriously annoyed by the heavy-handed security design of Catalina. Not one. Every single expert user I know is annoyed. That is a bad place for MacOS to be. MacOS 10.16 needs a serious course correction to fix this, and if 10.16 goes the opposite way — growing even more heavy-handed in restricting professional Mac users from just using their machines as they want and expect to — I genuinely fear for the future of the Mac as a platform for serious computer users.


                                                                                                                      • musicale 286 days ago

                                                                                                                        I'm kind of OK with "macOS Vista."

                                                                                                                        I've wanted more restrictive and granular permissions for a long time. Web browsers don't need unrestricted access to the entire file system. Neither do games. Preview doesn't need to access the microphone. Word doesn't usually need to record the screen. PowerPoint should not be sending email or accessing the camera. TextEdit doesn't need access to my contacts or calendar. And I don't want any of these programs interrupting me with stupid notifications. Maybe some people want to give these extra permissions, but I want them to be off by default.

                                                                                                                        My complaint is that permissions don't go far enough; for example I never want to be interrupted by software update notifications, but there's no way to turn them off.

                                                                                                                        • asveikau 285 days ago

                                                                                                                          People cite the browser a lot and I think it is the most important case because it runs untrusted javascript. So an exploitable browser bug maybe shouldn't have all these permissions without asking. OTOH the browser should apply such mitigations voluntarily.

                                                                                                                          • vmchale 285 days ago

                                                                                                                            > I'm kind of OK with "macOS Vista." I've wanted more restrictive and granular permissions for a long time.

                                                                                                                            I'd prefer sensible (silent) defaults, such as disabling PowerPoint's access to my webcam.

                                                                                                                            • hhas01 285 days ago

                                                                                                                              Just about everything you said there is wrong. Hey, don’t get me wrong: if you enjoy 10.15’s tedious security-theatre crap then knock yourself out. But you are not qualified to dictate what other users need or want to do; only they are.

                                                                                                                              Like Apple, you are thinking App-centrically. Stop. Apps are not the center of the users’ universe. The users’ own tasks are.

                                                                                                                              Therefore you need to think task-centrically—i.e. What does the user need/want to do?—and structure your security model to enable and support that.

                                                                                                                              • artimaeis 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                You're right that tasks are the center of the user's universe. But it's generally not tasks that infect a device with malware. It's malicious applications that do that.

                                                                                                                                This is the case on _every_ OS that lets users install applications.

                                                                                                                                So, how can we make sure users doing tasks aren't afflicted by applications that want to sneak in? You're saying to "structure a security model differently" leads me to think maybe users shouldn't have admin access on the machine? But then you get all the critiques people have of iOS.

                                                                                                                                I'm honestly asking, what's the alternative here?

                                                                                                                                • hhas01 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                  See my other post here. There will always be desktop malware; what really matters is that it is contained and has no access to sensitive information.

                                                                                                                                  Locking down the entire UX doesn’t work because day-to-day operations become onerous while the constant spew of “Are you sure?” dialogs teaches users to click OK without thinking.

                                                                                                                                  Instead, put the sensitive stuff into its own “secure desktop”, and police all movements between that and the “standard desktop”. Even stick in an “unsafe desktop” for doing risky stuff, and encourage users to install new/untrusted software there; e.g. let them install and run anything without nagging, but keep apps completely sandboxed. Boundaries should be clearly delimited, e.g. give the high-security desktop its own window chrome and fixed background image that can’t be mimicked on the others.

                                                                                                                                  It’s deliberately coarse-grained, unlike the current mess, and that’s the point. That makes it easy for users to mentally model and match scopes to tasks, and limits nagging to where it really matters: when crossing scope boundaries with data in tow. Simply switching scopes and working within a scope should not nag, however.

                                                                                                                                  Look, I’m not saying it’s guaranteed to work. But at least I’m thinking about it from the point of view of end-users, not vendor developers and lawyers. It’d need prototyped and tested in both lab and real world, and sure as guns users will discover exciting new ways to screw things up; which means learning and adapting to account for that.

                                                                                                                                  But that’s UX. Either do it right, or go get a job flipping burgers where the worst you’ll do is hospitalize a few dozen locals with E. Coli. TWO BILLION now trust large chunks of their lives to their “personal” machines. That is a lot of people to screw up.

                                                                                                                            • syntheticcdo 286 days ago

                                                                                                                              > there should be a single switch for expert users to toggle to effectively say “I trust all of the software on my Mac”.

                                                                                                                              As an "expert" software engineer, I completely trust absolutely zero software running on my computer, in my browser, or basically on any device anywhere. I begrudgingly put up with it all because there is no alternative. Adding friction is good because it will eventually push (force?) developers to use more modern, safer development patterns.

                                                                                                                              • robenkleene 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                That it will force developers to safer development patterns has demonstrably not been the case. When comparing the success of apps that work within Apple's sandboxing restrictions in the App Store versus apps that are outside of the App Store, that are not sandboxed, the ones outside the App Store and the sandbox are so much more popular that the sandboxed ones might as well not even exist[0]. Consumer's do not use sandboxed apps when there are more powerful equivalents that are not sandboxed.


                                                                                                                                • frankchn 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                  Adding friction will more likely resulting in most users blindly giving permissions to anything that asks for it. We’ve seen this before with the endless UAC dialogs in Windows Vista.

                                                                                                                                  • Wowfunhappy 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                    What if I wrote the software?

                                                                                                                                    I have a bunch of Applescripts which start with:

                                                                                                                                        tell application (path to frontmost application) to
                                                                                                                           they can control whatever is on screen at the time.

                                                                                                                                    Since Mojave, any time a new application happens to be in front, I get prompted to give Bash permission to control that app. And then the entire set of approved apps seems to get wiped sometimes when I edit the Applescripts. There's no way to approve apps ahead of time, and there's no way to blanket approve control of any app.

                                                                                                                                    • hhas01 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                      “What if I wrote the software?”

                                                                                                                                      Good point. Apple doesn’t care. If they did, they would’ve put some fricking effort into it. Not only is 10.15’s “Automation” security model pathetically thin and annoying (I’ve used those APIs; they’re crap), it doesn’t even protect users as it claims.

                                                                                                                                      Allowed a script running in permission to access your Contacts? Great, now ANY script that runs in Terminal can do whatever it likes to your address book.

                                                                                                                                      Once again, anything that does not fit cleanly into Apple’s naive App-centric model gets neglected, overlooked, or stomped on.

                                                                                                                                      Honestly, I think now they’re just waiting for AppleScript usage to die out on its own, so they can kill off the old and crusty (but very powerful) Apple event IPC system entirely. So it goes.


                                                                                                                                      TL;DR: Apple is in the commercial business of selling Apps. So where’s the benefit to them in you making your own?


                                                                                                                                    • Mindwipe 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                      > Adding friction is good because it will eventually push (force?) developers to use more modern, safer development patterns.

                                                                                                                                      Or more likely it forces the retirement of known good software, and requires you to use unknown, newer tools that have had much less time for security and behaviour auditing my the general community over the years.

                                                                                                                                      • ashleyw 284 days ago

                                                                                                                                        You can effectively do that by disabling SIP. I did it a few weeks ago while debugging an issue with my WiFi card (because apparently we’re no longer allowed to view the logs on our own computers..)

                                                                                                                                        I haven’t reenabled it yet, and I don’t think I will be doing for the time being. Apple’s gone too far here. Protect me, sure. Make me take an extra step to run an unsigned binary. For critical modifications like installing kernel extensions, make me run a terminal command, that’s fine. These measures would assist me in maintaining my own security, and they certainly shield my computer illiterate mother. But treat me like a hostile actor on my own computer and strip me of my superuser privileges? No.

                                                                                                                                        I’d rather be a pirate than join the Navy.

                                                                                                                                        • jcelerier 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                          Like what ? A software i develop needs to hide and move the mouse cursor at some point (To create an infinite zoom effect in a timeline as is common in media software). If the user clicks on "no" by reflex on the security popup when they first click on the scrollbar, a very very basic functionality of the software won't work and people won't have any idea why - best case is i get bug reports (and I got a few), worst case is bad press about shipping broken software. How would anything improve security here.

                                                                                                                                          • wasdfff 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                            Plus if someone did download something malicious, they will still click yes to all permissions

                                                                                                                                          • kitsunesoba 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                            Yes, it’s because of this that I leave SIP enabled even though it can occasionally be annoying. Running without SIP feels like being naked, because you really can’t trust third party software any more — even if the app itself isn’t doing something shady, someone somewhere is using a hole in it to do something shady.

                                                                                                                                            • Wowfunhappy 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                              Note that without SIP, you still have all the protections of the normal vs root user account. The key is to be careful when entering your admin password. This is no different than most Linux installations (although a few systems of course have their own extra hardening mechanisms).

                                                                                                                                          • spoondan 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                            There’s an important point to be made here about the gap between theoretical and practical security. Overly elaborate password policies (excessive complexity demands, passwords expiring, no reusing last five passwords) end up causing annoyed users to make bad decisions that compromise password security.

                                                                                                                                            Similarly, an excess of popups doesn’t increase security. It annoys users to the point they stop thinking about individual security decisions.

                                                                                                                                            There’s an important intersection of security research and HCI that doesn’t get discussed as much as it needs to be.

                                                                                                                                            • SkyMarshal 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                              >Overly elaborate password policies (excessive complexity demands, passwords expiring, no reusing last five passwords) end up causing annoyed users to make bad decisions that compromise password security.

                                                                                                                                              Similarly, an excess of popups doesn’t increase security. It annoys users to the point they stop thinking about individual security decisions.

                                                                                                                                              It's particularly annoying b/c there's a subset of craftsmen developers who pay close attention to this problem, who realize these cures are worse than the disease, and who reverted years ago to not using these flawed security patterns. Many here on HN, for example.

                                                                                                                                              And then there are Apple engineers who seem to be so far behind the curve that they're just now discovering and implementing patterns that others not only discovered and tested years ago, but discarded years ago.

                                                                                                                                              It's like corporate 9-to-5'ers with no pride of craftsmanship or motivation to stay current with their field made these decisions. Either that or clueless management ordered it, which in any other company besides Apple would be my first guess.

                                                                                                                                              • hhas01 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                “And then there are Apple engineers who seem to be so far behind the curve that they're just now discovering and implementing patterns that others not only discovered and tested years ago, but discarded years ago.”

                                                                                                                                                QFT. Because there are not enough upvotes in all the world.

                                                                                                                                                • DelightOne 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                  What is the alternative to popups here?

                                                                                                                                                • htfu 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                  Isn't this something (likely even more) granularity ought to counteract something fierce?

                                                                                                                                                  The annoyance is still there/potentially larger, but it's easier to make an informed decision about something specific, rather than the usual "enter your admin password to allow... potentially anything, probably persistently. Or don't, then no app for you." binary which seems easier to just blindly go along with, since auditing is the only way to find out what exactly the privileges are for.

                                                                                                                                                  The question is rather where sheer request volume overwhelms gains from actually knowing what's being asked for, but better tools letting user set a base comfort level as far as common requests like disk access etc should help with that.

                                                                                                                                                  I am however struggling to articulate my opinion in a way that doesn't boil down to essentially "the issue with the dreaded Vista popup was that there weren't ten different varieties!", heh. Nah, just comes down to asking once vs. every time.

                                                                                                                                                • mikenew 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                  One thing that drives me nuts is the way you get a security popup when you're working in a terminal. So you're ssh'd into a mac, you try to do something (like xcodebuild or whatever), and then it just sits there doing nothing while it waits for you to put in a password on a window you can't see.

                                                                                                                                                  It's not exactly new in Catalina, but it's worse. Apple just does not even think about the fact that you might want to do things remotely or automatically.

                                                                                                                                                  • htfu 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                    Yup. Or even just popups originally appearing behind other windows and missed. Or accidentally clicking the wrong option, or as with Mojave when apps requesting to record sound couldn't successfully trigger the popup in many cases.

                                                                                                                                                    The execution is where Apple is fucking up, yet people are hating on the concept, as if poor UX is somehow mandatory for something like this. Worries me a bit.

                                                                                                                                                    • nomel 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                      This is like having a firewall and getting upset that it's not passing everything through.

                                                                                                                                                      I believe there should absolutely be intentional, physical, steps to allow full remote access. Intentionally setting the terminal for full disk access is no less crazy than intentionally exposing a port through your firewall.

                                                                                                                                                      • mikenew 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                        Yeah a firewall where you open a port, but have to plug a monitor and keyboard into your router every time you want to use it.

                                                                                                                                                        I'm not "upset" that it needs authorization. I think it's a design flaw that you can't do it via a terminal, you don't even know that that's why your process has stalled, and you have to click a box every time.

                                                                                                                                                    • hhas01 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                      Retrofitting user-centric security model onto an OS and application ecosystem that wasn’t designed for it and has grown up without it was always going to be a giant ballache. There’s no way around the pain. The old “fortress wall” model is worse than useless now that the user’s desktop is itself an untrusted environment.

                                                                                                                                                      The problem I see with these current changes is that they appear to be reactive—“X, Y, and Z are potential threat vectors, so we need to lock those down”—rather than taking the long view—“what does the future security model need to look like and do?”—and plot a clear, reasoned course to that from where we are now.

                                                                                                                                                      The result is an Application-level security model, when what users need is Task-level security. Users still get all of the pain of change, yet none of the intended benefits—all that’s happened is we’ve gone from one unfit-for-purpose platform to another.

                                                                                                                                                      For instance, just consider high-security operations such as internet banking. No way on Earth should we be using the same web browser application for sensitive financials as we use for reading all the daily gossip, browsing teh prawns, etc. Split that out into a dedicated, hardened version with no support for extensions, external automation, and its own isolated password managment. Whitelist security-sensitive URLs so that they open in that version, and restrict opening common-or-garden URLs to the low-security version only.

                                                                                                                                                      Isolating sensitive User Tasks within their own “high-security desktop” environment would take a lot of the security pressures off individual apps, obviating the need for these endless “Do you want to grant permission for X to access Y to do Z?” requests. Which, as any security fule kno, are worse than useless at protecting users; protecting only the platform vendor from taking the blame when the inevitable fuckups occur (aka Blame the Luser).

                                                                                                                                                      That’s the user-security model Apple ought to pursue, but they’ve been stuck so long in their classically atomic Application-centric view of the universe I don’t think they can imagine a platform where atomic Apps are subservient to the big smooshy probability cloud of user tasks that surrounds them. Partly because that nice simple neatly-packaged atomic App model is what generates revenue, but also partly because it requires giving up control; and both developers and marketeers like keeping control very much, and fear very much ceding it to anyone else.

                                                                                                                                                      That takes courage, and Apple hasn’t had that sort of courage for a decade.

                                                                                                                                                      But putting Control into the hands of Users, in a form that those users can use, is the very core of UX, and nowhere more important than protecting users from “themselves”.

                                                                                                                                                    • xkemp 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                      How can there still be people writing these yearly "I'm so disappointed" articles. It's the same for every single MacOS release. I bet if I look through the archives here, the last halfway usable OS release from Apple was Mac OS 8.

                                                                                                                                                      You'd figure the people writing these articles wold leave for other platforms, and those that remain should be less likely to do hot-take duty next year, considering they didn't feel the need to this year?

                                                                                                                                                      Unless there's constant renewal in the pool of people-with-something-to-say. I guess today's worst-MacOS-ever is their future good-old-days-of-quality.

                                                                                                                                                      • thawaway1837 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                        This is absolutely not true.

                                                                                                                                                        I haven’t been in the Mac ecosystem for some time now, but I can say for sure that no one was writing these articles until Snow Leopard at least.

                                                                                                                                                        I thin what has led to the prevalence of these articles is Apples shift to an annual release cycle for their Mac OSes. It used to be well known that you didn’t upgrade to an OS until the .1 version at the earliest, and it was only until .3 or .4 that a new OS X would be absolutely stable. Unfortunately with the annual release cycle the OS isn’t stable for even a few months before it is replaced. And I’m convinced that the fixes aren’t as good anyways because as soon as one OS is out, many devs are likely working on the next one.

                                                                                                                                                        Catalina itself appears to have become a bigger disaster due to what may be considered good decisions, such as better security and killing 32 bit, but done in a way that reminds people of Vista. With nag screens and a poor transition path. That’s why the noise against Catalina has been even louder.

                                                                                                                                                        • tambourine_man 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                          Memory is a curious thing. Snow Leopard had a very problematic release but got better during the dot updates. Its “no new features” slogan was commendable and resonated well, but it meant under the hood changes that broke things.

                                                                                                                                                          Perhaps they should reconsider the yearly release schedule. Either go back to a more conservative one, letting things settle after many point updates and enjoying the achieved stability for longer, or adopt a continuous evergreen model, like Chrome and Firefox.

                                                                                                                                                          • thawaway1837 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                            Well, no one moved to a new OSX release on their main machines until .1 at least. That applied to Snow Leopard as well. And so SL wasn’t penalized for that.

                                                                                                                                                            The difference was that the non annual release cycle meant that the .0 version was a significantly smaller proportion of Snow Leopards life cycle, than is the case for recent annual releases of OSX.

                                                                                                                                                            Let’s assume Apple takes 3 months to stabilize an OS right after release. If you’re always up to date, an annual release cycle means that for 25% of your time, you’re using an unstable version of the OS. A 2 year cycle would mean that you’re using an unstable version for only 12.5% of your time. That’s a very significant change.

                                                                                                                                                            And in practice I think it’s worse because with the non annual release cycles, most OSX devs would use the time right after release to stabilize the OS. Whereas with the annual release cycle, it’s apparent that most devs’ priorities shift to next years OS instead.

                                                                                                                                                            • tambourine_man 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                              > The difference was that the non annual release cycle meant that the .0 version was a significantly smaller proportion of Snow Leopards life cycle, than is the case for recent annual releases of OSX.

                                                                                                                                                              Exactly. That’s what I meant.

                                                                                                                                                          • arh68 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                            Snow Leopard was the first "cheap" version of OS X, $29 (IIRC). People who went Tiger -> Leopard had to pay for the privilege, and after Snow Leopard it was all free (EDIT: no, I was wrong, it was later.. but it was cheaper).

                                                                                                                                                            Maybe that had something to do with it?

                                                                                                                                                          • kstenerud 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                            Leopard was an utter crap release with tons of complaints. I remember the many issues just trying to get Finder to work without crashing, or syncing a phone.

                                                                                                                                                            Snow Leopard was "better" in that it wasn't so terribly broken, and they eventually got it working decently.

                                                                                                                                                            From then on, the only complaints were about how locked down each new version was, what was no longer supported, and how many new annoying dialogs they'd introduced... UNTIL Catalina.

                                                                                                                                                            Now we're back to the Leopard problem again. Plus more annoying dialogs.

                                                                                                                                                            • chungus_khan 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                              Leopard also got rid of Classic, which meant I just couldn't use it if I had wanted to at the time. At that point there had been a long-time legacy of backwards compatibility for the Macintosh, and I was in a position where I frequently needed to retrieve data in oddball formats from older Mac software. Tiger for Intel already didn't have it, and from that point forward Apple's attitude to backwards compatibility has seemed to be to operate at the minimum acceptable level.

                                                                                                                                                              • thatfrenchguy 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                I mean, Tiger for Intel had a PPC emulator, that’s not “minimum acceptable level”.

                                                                                                                                                                • chungus_khan 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                  It absolutely was. Pretty much nobody would have been able to use Intel Macs at launch without Rosetta, because there was no software.

                                                                                                                                                                  What I mean is that Apple used to actively support a very long legacy of backwards compatibility, and since the switch to Intel seems to only care about maintaining as much backwards compatibility as is strictly necessary for ordinary users to accept.

                                                                                                                                                            • newscracker 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                              Every single Mac OS X/OS X/macOS release has had glaring issues, but the difference is that some of the releases have been relatively better and some of them worse. Catalina, combined with the user experience of someone who upgrades to Catalina, probably comes close to the original release of 10.0 or worse. Apple isn’t paying attention to software engineering on the Mac, and the constant push to “iOSify” the Mac is a big drag. It seems like the “Wild West” and “cowboy coding” and what other metaphors you can use to describe why Catalina and its apps are so bad.

                                                                                                                                                            • nicolas_t 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                              I have a new macbook pro 16 inch so I'm forced to use Catalina for it. Up until 10.15.2, it was extremely buggy with applications like the Terminal crashing and then refusing to start again if you force quit them. I had to restart the computer once a day about...

                                                                                                                                                              With 10.15.3, it's a bit better but I still see the spinning spinning wheel of death way more than I used to, and my computer completely crashed once with the fan turning on very quickly and the screen becoming completely gray... I don't think it's production ready yet.

                                                                                                                                                              As an aside not being able to run 32 bits applications is really annoying to me. I like to play old games, and not being able to annoys me. I can use crossover with the windows version of the games but it's a hassle. Just for the 32 bits issue, I wish I could install Mojave on my mbp 16 inch.

                                                                                                                                                              So, yes, worst os upgrade in a long time... I'm now dreading the os update that will disable kernel extensions and stop me from having Little Snitch and Karabiner. If that happens, I'll probably switch to Linux for my personal computers.

                                                                                                                                                              Surprisingly, I'm less bothered by the Permission popups, and while I don't care about apps having access to Downloads and Desktop, I do care about them having or not access to Documents. I see this is as a complement of Little Snitch. So this is for me the only positive of Catalina...

                                                                                                                                                              • dep_b 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                Some issues I noticed on my previous 2015 MBP 15" (still on Mojave) also popped up on my brand new 2019 MBP 16", like the UI completely halting doing mundane stuff like opening a new tab or something. I always thought it was software rot after 5 years of use and a fresh install would fix everything.

                                                                                                                                                                • nicolas_t 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                  At the same time, my old trusty Mac Pro on Mojave never does that... Both have the same amount of RAM, both are 8 cores... But the Mac pro is just that much more stable.

                                                                                                                                                                • MobileVet 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                  Hold the phone... I am going to have to give up Little Snitch?!? Not cool.

                                                                                                                                                                • mhd 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                  It's been a long time since a MacOS upgrade was "worth it", from an end-user perspective. They're much more liked Windows Service Packs these days. This used to be way different, every new OS X release was much more celebrated and often brought features that were really appreciated by the users.

                                                                                                                                                                  Sure, part of that was just easier in the beginning: 10.0 started out with a lot of issues, and just getting rid of most of the CRT-focussed UI elements (heavy zebra-striping, gum-drop buttons) took several releases (I do miss drawers, though).

                                                                                                                                                                  But that still left you with quite a few innovations: FileVault, Spotlight, Expose, Time Machine, Dashboard, Spaces etc.

                                                                                                                                                                  I was a lot more excited about the zoological releases than the geographical ones. Cross-pollination with iOS didn't produce something exciting, either.

                                                                                                                                                                  Dropping compatibility once again would sure be a better sell if expectations of the future would be higher.

                                                                                                                                                                  • pjc50 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                    And from the developer point of view, notarisation is a colossal headache. It might be OK if you're shipping a single app, but we have a vast hybrid thing that includes Mono, a JDK, and some Python native libraries. All of which have to be signed themselves.

                                                                                                                                                                    • dep_b 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                      I did a Xamarin app that had some kind of custom USB driver built in. That hell just got one level deeper?

                                                                                                                                                                  • rcarmo 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                    I’ve put off upgrading until (at least) the Mail issues are fixed. I have zero trust that Apple is even prioritizing those kinds of fixes, and simply can’t risk the disruption of having my machine not work in some subtly critical way.

                                                                                                                                                                    (In contrast, my Windows machines are stubbornly reliable, even the one running Insider builds. Which is a wild inversion of the reasons I started 16 years ago...)

                                                                                                                                                                    • thewhitetulip 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                      The biggest issue I have with Mac upgrades is that for me, it doesn't cache the upgrade.

                                                                                                                                                                      My internet is weak, not as great in speed and bandwidth as US so it downloads 4gb and then fails. Then it starts from 0 sgain.

                                                                                                                                                                      I expected Apple of all companies to cache downloads.

                                                                                                                                                                      Frankly, it caches only the first 500MB. I do not know why.

                                                                                                                                                                      Any workarounds?

                                                                                                                                                                      • satysin 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                        I use the installer download script from

                                                                                                                                                                        Has always worked fine.

                                                                                                                                                                      • jasonrm 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                        You might want to give "macOS Patcher" a try.

                                                                                                                                                                        It's main purpose is to allow for running macOS on unsupported Macs, but it also can download the original unmodified version. I've only used the unpatched Mojave version myself and I have no idea how well it supports slow/unstable connections.

                                                                                                                                                                        • simongr3dal 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                          I've had good experiences using this to download the installer and install macOS on external storage.

                                                                                                                                                                        • tcoff91 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                          I think you might be able to use the Apple developer downloads site to get the whole installer

                                                                                                                                                                          • cerberusss 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                            If you have another (24/7 powered-on) Mac in the household, it can act as a cache:

                                                                                                                                                                            • sgt 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                              Frankly nowadays (on most systems) you need a decent connection. I would perhaps connect from another connection (if you have the opportunity) for the download itself.

                                                                                                                                                                              • jaynetics 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                If 25M people are eligible for this upgrade and it fails in the middle for only 1%, that is 1 Petabyte transferred in vain. Not to mention man hours wasted. Just to save a few lines of code.

                                                                                                                                                                                • sgt 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                  You're missing the point. It's about the way you treat people and also shaming a particular individual on a corporate blog.

                                                                                                                                                                                • thewhitetulip 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't have broadband connection. I use mobile data.

                                                                                                                                                                              • athiercelin 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                I've heard these upgrade stories since the 90s (on Mac). It got better a few years back, and it's back again at hit or miss but in the end it's like backup strategies: it's basic knowledge at this point but still needs to be repeated.

                                                                                                                                                                                If your mac is a production machine, don't jump on any of the updates, decide if you need the update then check your programs one by one.

                                                                                                                                                                                If you can, pop into the Apple Store to test the system.

                                                                                                                                                                                I'm not defending Apple, I'm not victim-blaming, it's just an advice to avoid the misery of going past the point of no return.

                                                                                                                                                                                • neurostimulant 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                  Yup, this is pretty much what I do regardless of operating system. Just don't upgrade to the latest major version immediately after release. Wait around a bit to see if other people reported any major issue, and then wait until those issue fixed before upgrading.

                                                                                                                                                                                  • cosmiccatnap 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                    I get that, and everyone in this thread knows that, but the issue is that alot of devices come with it and it is branded as "stable" Windows and Linux have a better excuse they have to support thousands upon thousands of devices and configurations but for apple to have this many issues with the hand full of pre built systems they have, well, it should be perfectly understandable to ask why a company with this much time and money would release something in this state especially when they had a beta. For most of us it's not a big deal but plenty of people have to start writing their app and testing on this and for them it's pretty confusing and you have to ask yourself how it got this way when there shouldn't have been any reason for it to.

                                                                                                                                                                                  • MikeTaylor 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                    One of the killers for me is the dropped support for 32-bit binaries. I don't have a gaming box, so I play Steam games on my MacBook. Lots of the games I want to play (e.g. all the BioShocks) are 32-bit.

                                                                                                                                                                                    • whywhywhywhy 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                      I understood when they removed PPC support via Rosetta from Intel OS X (Even though the tech pretty much felt like magic). But I don't get the justification for ditching all that legacy 32bit software.

                                                                                                                                                                                      If it hasn't been upgraded yet, then it's never going to be. The Mac isn't like iOS, it's pretty niche. You can't just throw all the software under the bus every few years and sit back smugly expecting either developers to fix all their old software or the market to create new software to fill the gap.

                                                                                                                                                                                      No 32bit Mac apps are going to be replaced with 64bit SwiftUI native apps, they're going to be replaced with Javascript apps in wrappers and your platform is going to be worse off than it would be if the dusty "old" 32bit cocoa app still ran.

                                                                                                                                                                                      • jmull 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                        I think the issue is that supporting 32-bit apps in MacOS isn't free. So there's a cost/benefit analysis to do.

                                                                                                                                                                                        It probably isn't helped by the current MacOS business model. MacOS needs to focus on things that help sell new Macs because that's where the money comes from. Back when you'd drop $129 every few years the focus could be more on the OS itself. Not that it didn't also have to sell Macs, but the OS itself was product and it isn't any longer.

                                                                                                                                                                                        • whywhywhywhy 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                          I think that makes a lot of sense, until you look at the rest of the market and that Windows 10 was a one off purchase in 2015 and still supports apps from the early 90s, with a selection of apps tens, maybe hundreds? of times more than OS X. Not to mention Apple specifically chose that business model themselves for business reasons, they get the cost benefit of not having to support older versions which must outweigh 32bit support. We can't retroactively claim that business choice is not a bad thing just because it supports their bad actions today.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Been a fan of Macs for 20 years but becoming more jaded with Apples approach to the platform.

                                                                                                                                                                                          • jmull 284 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                            > We can't retroactively claim that business choice is not a bad thing

                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm not saying it's good or bad, just explaining why (in my analysis).

                                                                                                                                                                                            Regarding Windows, I think we have yet to fully see how the movement toward "the operating system is free" will affect it. For one thing, OEMs and businesses are still paying for Windows. I'd guess direct revenue from Windows is dropping and is expected to continue to drop. But that's not the same thing as the $0 that MacOS makes (directly).

                                                                                                                                                                                            But, yes, if you want to run software from the '90s and not in a VM, then Windows is probably your OS (I think businesses are the reason for that. They have a lot of software in use that would be very disruptive/expensive to replace or move to some visualized environment.)

                                                                                                                                                                                          • Wowfunhappy 282 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                            > I think the issue is that supporting 32-bit apps in MacOS isn't free. So there's a cost/benefit analysis to do.

                                                                                                                                                                                            The cost benefit analysis should be as follows: if I know Apple is going to kill compatibility with a large range of software on a whim (ie, not because of a huge and unavoidable underlying hardware transition), I'm going to stop investing in Apple's platform, and by extension stop buying new Macs.

                                                                                                                                                                                            This is in fact what I'm doing.

                                                                                                                                                                                        • Shivetya 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                          this is my situation, my iMac is for home use which includes games and the like, more than half of my games are marked incompatible and this includes all the Half Life titles and even a few games which have current DLC.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Now is the first time in years where it is valid for Windows fans to mock those who use their Macs for games as it truly isn't for a majority of games that used to work just fine. Though a few games that run through the equivalent of Wine wrappers are again working.

                                                                                                                                                                                      • speeder 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                        I never been an Apple fan. When iPhone launched I was skeptical, and didn't wanted one, and so on...

                                                                                                                                                                                        I often argued with apple fans, and one thing that was clear to me, is that people that tried apple products around 2008 or so often would just love it, and many would become apple fans too.

                                                                                                                                                                                        I used my first Mac around that time, and although I found some stuff just silly (mouse with only one button...) I overall liked it.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Fast forward to launch of Touch Bar...

                                                                                                                                                                                        Now I see lots of division and love hate relationship with apple... Still, my sister moved to US to be a researcher, invited by top universities (she even did a 6 month stint in MIT, at their request!) And was offered to pick a computer. She always liked Apple and other "fashionable" brands and picked up a machine with touch bar and would get mad at me whenever I pointed out it's flaws (like the impossible to repair keyboard), until the touchbar suddenly died and the machine would not boot anymore... She took it to Apple and they just swapped the whole machine.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Then keyboard broke... Another swap.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Then Catalina...

                                                                                                                                                                                        Then the fact upgrading it's RAM was unecessarily hard and expensive and needed urgently (an app to analyze microscope data was outright refusing to run).

                                                                                                                                                                                        Then she came to me, sheepishly, to ask me to recommend a non Apple computer, and said Apple was worse than what I said...

                                                                                                                                                                                        Thing is, it is not just her, I have the impression that current Apple is opposite of 2008 Apple, instead of making weird but good stuff that create hardcore fans, it is creating products that are just bad and makes haters stop hating, and just ignore the company, and fans start hating...

                                                                                                                                                                                        • xkemp 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                          Your relationship with both your sister and Apple users seems to mainly consist of condescension. For your sister, there's some added dependency: of course she's eventually gonna fold if she wants you to do tech support and you more or less make it a requirement that you get to make her decisions forthwith.

                                                                                                                                                                                          FWIW the stereotype of Apple targeting "beginners" who are after "fashion items" is ridiculous. There are millions of "professionals" using Macs. It's a fully functional Unix with a GUI that gets out of way.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Pick any project you consider excellent, and you'll find someone working on it that uses a Mac, even the Linux Kernel. Now, try to argue against that person's reasons, not some figment of your imagination rendered into a sack of stereotypes.

                                                                                                                                                                                          • mihaaly 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                            I believe the relationship with the sister is more like gloating on the misfortune of hers. In rooting for Apple... Which stems in a well deserved criticism of Apple.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Apple does not do improvements, it just forces changes!

                                                                                                                                                                                            When was the last time the changes were dominantly necessary for the sake of users? It was more like marginal in the past 10+ years. Instead doing excessive actions for the sake of questionable features mostly created for the marketing department and the clockwork keynotes! Revolutionary keyboard, charging, touchbar, blooming of adapters, eliminating connectivity, sacrificing usability for the rampage of thinness, force touch, new UI for the sake of new UI just to name some of the biggest issues!

                                                                                                                                                                                            Apple well deserve the condescension!!

                                                                                                                                                                                            (not the Apple users! They are just unfortunate trusting Apple)

                                                                                                                                                                                            • speeder 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                              I never said that.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I am a Designer and I have an animation degree, there are lots of Macs in the field, and they are not for "professionals", but for actual professionals, the computers I mentioned I used were MacPros that were actually rather interesting machines, and it was sad when Apple decided to stop making them (now they are making them again but with ludicrous prices).

                                                                                                                                                                                              What I DID mean, is that my sister is prone to being a "fan" of a company, instead of choosing only for the product quality, and this was a factor in choosing Apple's stuff, and more importantly, a factor in her being defensive about the company.

                                                                                                                                                                                              What I mean is: Apple attracts certain types of people, including some that become fans, but they are not stupid, if products are bad they start to hate the company instead, and Apple is attracting their hate right now with crappy products.

                                                                                                                                                                                              • arh68 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                Mac Pros not being MacBooks is an interesting point. A wide range of products leads to a spectrum of quality. Die-hard fans may be the ones in the high-price/-reliability quadrant, but maybe 5x more are attracted by the lower-price/-reliability quadrant. I suspect that MacBook was in the starter quadrant, and the actual professionals are in the other.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Sometimes things even shift in a single product over time: establish a good reputation, then water down the product a couple years later. All the die-hards leave, and the rest are none the wiser.

                                                                                                                                                                                                IMO $6k is just too much for a Mac Pro, except if it rocked a 3990X (do it, Mr. Apple!). It might actually be worth the money, even still. Apple seems to support Mac Pro OS upgrades for ~10 years after release.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • avilesj 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                              I am on a similar boat.

                                                                                                                                                                                              While I was never an Apple fan, I started to respect their products after my android-linux-hacking phase (Couldn't find better words for that period of my life).

                                                                                                                                                                                              Up to the point of considering getting an iPhone since I don't fool around with my android phone anymore, but what I wanted the most was to have a MacBook.

                                                                                                                                                                                              They've always looked so sleek and overall good looking, including the nice looking OS which seemed to have a functional GUI over a Unix core. And then I got one.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Last year my current job assigned me one to contribute to our mobile codebase. It's a MBP 2019, 15 inch.

                                                                                                                                                                                              From a hardware perspective: + Excellent screen

                                                                                                                                                                                              + Good looking design

                                                                                                                                                                                              + Nice speakers

                                                                                                                                                                                              + Touchpad is nice

                                                                                                                                                                                              - The touchbar exists

                                                                                                                                                                                              - Low key travel (bad keyboard experience overall)

                                                                                                                                                                                              - Lack of non type-c ports (dongle land)

                                                                                                                                                                                              As for the software, my first MacOS experience was Catalina and the only issues I've had I'm not sure if I should blame Catalina or the software per se.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I use Emacs for my text editing needs (and more) and it has been nothing but pain (Some outright freezes, buffers have chopped display sometimes).

                                                                                                                                                                                              Docker experience is just bad. Since It's not natively implemented it has to run up its own vm to work and having any small container running will turn up the overall heat on the machine which, thanks to the bad keyboard, I can feel at my fingertips.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Homebrew is painfully slow.

                                                                                                                                                                                              The GUI is fine, but with the recent advancements on the other DEs (specially KDE) I really don't see any advantages.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Overall if Linux had better support on Apple hardware, I'd have a partition with it and only boot on OS X for mobile dev.

                                                                                                                                                                                              • whywhywhywhy 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                >Then the fact upgrading it's RAM was unecessarily hard and expensive and needed urgently

                                                                                                                                                                                                Isn't it impossible? It's soldered to the board.

                                                                                                                                                                                              • newscracker 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                Apple really let the ball down with the lousy keyboard, and in the old and tired Apple style, refused to acknowledge the problem and fix it with urgency (or support well the customers who complained about keyboard issues). And then the huge misstep with the Mac Pro and years of delays. Add the lack of updates or news about the Mac mini for several years. All this while, Apple was shamelessly selling old hardware for the same prices as when they launched those! Even now Apple sells several notebooks with the bad keyboards!

                                                                                                                                                                                                Then we have Catalina, Catalyst apps, the breakup of iTunes that’s turned out to be messier.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Except for iPhone hardware and wearables, Apple has failed to demonstrate innovation, honesty, integrity and responsibility in other areas.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The Six Colors Apple Report Card for 2019 [1] provides some scathing feedback from some well known names who live, breathe and talk Apple. It’s mild in some places, but never have so many people from this background been so critical on so many things (as I recall).


                                                                                                                                                                                                • konceptz 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                  You posed an interesting point which my mind immediately went to: How do you think 2008 apple would do against the sole of today given today’s technology?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • megous 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Choosing a wrong tool (fashion and status product) for the job (science) is hardly a thing against Apple's products.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    And I hate Apple products too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • inviromentalist 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I've tried very hard to understand what benefits a MacBook has over Windows/Linux.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I've boiled it down to- it can compile iOS apps, and you can use Unix commands. The first is Apple intentionally being anti competitive, the later is a genuine benefit that I nearly am unaffected by being a Windows/Linux user.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      However the strangest thing came up in my research, the number of SWE that said they liked the way it looks. It's shinny.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I genuinely don't know what to think about Apple users decision making.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • millstone 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                        This seems to be a genuine question so I will answer it. I run Windows, Linux, and Mac. The reasons I prefer my Mac:

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. The most important reason is that the Mac UI is generally consistent and powerful: both the appearance but also keyboard shortcuts, modifier key behavior, etc. Neither Linux nor Windows has both of these. Linux has never had a consistent UI and Windows is just a mess (e.g. two control panels in Win10).

                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. Compared to Windows, vastly less of the advertising and key-logging nonsense. No Candy Crush ads for example.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        3. Compared to Linux, better software availability and quality. There's the obvious big players (Photoshop, Office, etc), but Apple's own apps are quite good. I'll take Keynote over Google Slides any day. In general Linux software is also available on the Mac (VLC, Gimp, etc) but the reverse is not true.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        4. iOS integration is sweet: Reminders, Notes, Messages, etc. It's awesome when a 2FA text message arrives on my phone, get forwarded to Messages on my Mac, and then Safari offers it in the text field. (Can I do this anywhere else? Honest question.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                        5. For me, Linux and Windows upgrades have been more problematic than my Macs. For example, Ubuntu 16 upgrade left a broken glibc and I had to reinstall.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I believe that Apple's software quality is trending the wrong way, and am very suspicious of Catalyst, so there's cause for worry. But I still very much prefer to use a Mac today.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        • briandear 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Aesthetics aren’t valid? Much of the fields of architecture, art, design, and even engineering would disagree.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          It also doesn’t seem that you have “tried very hard” to understand the benefits of a Mac. “you can use Unix commands”? That’s the big benefit you discovered?

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • inviromentalist 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Feel free to correct or add.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm genuinely trying to figure out where I'm wrong.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • SkyMarshal 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have a 2013 MacBook that is my main work computer when not at home on my desktop workstation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Years ago I learned to disable automatic system updates and to stay 1 major OS version behind. Let the enthusiasts, fanboys and early adopter pawns work out all the bugs in the current OS X version, install it only when the next version nears or launches.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        • tbarbugli 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Catalina is by far the worst OSX release for me and many people I know.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          For months ext monitor support was buggy, touchbar stopped working daily (related to ext monitor bug) and restarts were necessary in order to go back to stable state. Since a couple weeks things improved a lot and I am back to my default state: I dont care about my OS nor about any Apple app, just let me use my IDE and browser without annoying me. I think that the wise thing here is to never ever upgrade OSX until a couple minor releases are out. Bugs eventually get fixed and security patches are important! This reminds me of Cassandra where x.y.6 was the right version to use :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • diebeforei485 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                            We're coming to a point where March is the best time to upgrade. By then, Apple has fixed most issues, and most apps have fixed their bugs as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            The issue is: every year at WWDC they announce a bunch of (way too many) features.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Then, they only have ~3 months to actually complete the features. But crucially, betas are only made available after WWDC. So they get a ton of bug reports that they can't possibly really fix by release.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            • dwaite 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                              I think in general Catalina was missing flagship features.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              - The split of iTunes into Music, Podcasts and TV (and system integration for iOS synchronization/backup) didn't bring about significant user-visible benefits. I think there was an issue with content not being available in iTunes under 4k the was solved, and Dolby Atmos was added.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              - Catalina is not really a user-level feature. The apps which are created using Catalina aren't really draws - Find My is probably my most used, and I could just use the website if it wasn't an app.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              - Reminders got a big refactor and new functionality, but the in itself is a limited draw.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              - A few smaller changes to Notes, Photos, and Safari, but nothing I couldn't live without

                                                                                                                                                                                                              - Screen Time - perhaps useful in families, but my understanding is that the conceptual differences between iPhone usage and Mac usage weren't accommodated for.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              There was the delayed release, impact to polish, and removal of features like iCloud Folder Sharing (which I've indirectly been told were all the same issue - that folder sharing was not stable enough to be integrated into the tree and it impacted other development). It was a much rockier-than-normal update.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              You also have the anti-features of 32-bit support being removed, and additional privacy-consent-for-access prompts for screen sharing, sensitive folder access, etc. The prompts are IMHO overblown - they are one-time and many of them have gone away as software has been updated for Catalina (as in, there was no legitimate reason for some particular application to be scanning the Desktop to begin with). This doesn't change that there isn't a big draw.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              If there is a big feature for macOS Catalina, it would be SideCar. This adds a second screen to the Mac, it enables pencil usage, and perhaps even provides a slight bit more justification to Touch Bar functionality. This is still limited as it is an ecosystem feature - IMHO its real value comes when you are using an iPad Pro.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              • checker659 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                I used to be a huge fan of Dashboard. Why they had to remove it is beyond me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                • mantap 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It was theoretically replaced by notification center widgets, but in reality it was replaced by smartphones. All the little apps I used to have on dashboard, like the weather, are now things I check on my phone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                • sgt 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've actually kept postponing upgrading to Catalina (I'm still on Mojave) because I want to keep iTunes. I have a lot of stuff there I don't really want scattered all over the place, and I always felt iTunes was underrated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • arthurfm 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    There's a Mac app called Retroactive [1] that enables you to run iTunes (and Aperture) on macOS Catalina.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • dvfjsdhgfv 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    How are you going to solve this?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm in a similar position, having several music apps I bought a while ago that won't work in Catalina. But I have to upgrade because it's my development machine. So far my plan is to upgrade my MacBook Pro to continue develop software, and leave my Mac Pro with Mojave to compose music. I wonder how others deal with this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • newscracker 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      See my comment above [1] with a link to a Macrumors forum thread that allows you to run iTunes and older versions of iTunes on Catalina and Mojave. It might probably break at some point in the future, but people seem to be managing so far.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • Doctor_Fegg 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Similar. Current plan is to reluctantly upgrade my newer Mac mini for Xcode, and keep the old one for Illustrator CS6. A royal pain, though, especially because the old one is just that bit too slow.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • Lammy 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Does the license allow you to virtualize Mojave as long as it’s on Mac hardware?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • narenkeshav 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Really wish there was an open source music player similar to the OLD iTunes. It was a joy, back then.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • lukifer 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Not open source, but Swinsian is a sort of spiritual successor to iTunes 1.0. Runs fast, none of the modern bloat:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • anoncow 286 days ago


                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thread on Catalina bricking Macbooks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • cannam 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My god, the rudeness of some of the defensive replies on there. If I was in that situation, with an expensively broken computer and no help from anyone, and someone with no experience of it kept harrying me in that way, well... I'd be so livid I could barely type.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • indymike 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Catalina has been a pretty smooth upgrade. Helps to have one of the newer macs with a fingerprint reader... it makes all the new confirm you want to do this thing dialogs much more livable. Migrating to zsh took an unexpected hour of updating build scripts. Honestly, 90% of the annoyance in software updates is being forced to do stuff you really didn't plan on doing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • cutler 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              For a long time I've been baffled about what amounts to testing at Apple. I purposely avoid new releases for at least a year due to Apple's history of releasing beta-grade OS X updates. Testing seems to be an afterthought or maybe the users ARE the test suite. From one of the biggest tech companies on the planet as well - unfathomable.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • auggierose 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yeah, there's been some pain to upgrade to Catalina, but for me as a developer it was worth it, just because of Project Catalyst. Also, they were making some serious (and necessary) changes to the iCloud / File API, and I would have been very surprised if that went without lots of bugs ... To be honest, the transition went much smoother than I expected.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • newscracker 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Project Catalyst trades off some developer pain for a few thousand or tens of thousands of developers with pain imposed on millions or tens of millions of users. A rushed and half baked system that breaks Mac conventions isn’t worth it for the users. Not now. It could turn out to be something worthwhile next year or the year after.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • galad87 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    10.15 beta shipped with a new iCloud implemented with NSFileProvider. But it was buggy, so they reverted to the old implementation for the final release.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • mistahenry 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I was already using zsh and somehow the MacOS upgrade path for making zsh the new default shell deleted my shell history.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This was a short term blow to productivity since I had only made external notes on about half the difficult command line tasks I’d completed since getting this MacBook in 2017.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    How do people generally go about backing up this file? Or do most people not

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • alexis_fr 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I use several tabs and histories override each other, meaning I could never count on a command being present in the history. I’ve always been told an experienced dev has a folder with txt notes, so that is what I did.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • jcelerier 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm pretty sure that you can configure zsh to write to zsh_history every command to prevent this

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • javagram 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > How do people generally go about backing up this file? Or do most people not

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If you use Time Machine it should be backed up.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have two hard drives I rotate on and off my computer regularly for Time Machine for redundancy, it’s always worked well so far.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • st3fan 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      DOOM! DOOM! SO MUCH DOOOOM!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So different story here: using Catalina on two Macs since the betas - zero issues. Really, Zero Issues. It all just works. I use it 8+ hours a day - Browsers, terminal work,, lots of third-party applications, Xcode.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ok fine, Xcode can be a PITA sometimes. But Catalina .. my workhorse since the betas. Never lets me down.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • narenkeshav 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I use Unity3D and everytime there is a new macOS update, I always procrastinate it for a year at least. This year around, I was very tempted to update it, early last week. Looking at this feed, I ain't going to do it. I have an iOS app to publish & can't do anything stupid.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • davnicwil 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have a similar attitude. At the end of the day, MacOS updates have zero chance of helping me get work done faster, yet they have low but non-trivial chance of halting progress on work for a few hours due to obscure issues.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There just seems no upside to upgrading - I just wait until either I'm forced to or starting a completely new project just to pay off a tech debt of sorts. I'll caveat this by saying I don't work in the Apple ecosystem so don't have any dependencies there, the tools I run are orthogonal to MacOS specific features, so I don't really care about them per se.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • riffraff 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            this, a hundred times. I stayed on snow leopard for years, and I can barely notice anything better in Mojave, and about nothing in Catalina either.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On the other hand, the weather widgets in the dashboard have now stopped working, and nobody seems to care, because that's not a cool feature anymore.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • appstorelottery 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Me too, I've been using Unity for over 10 years.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Having said that, I simultaneously develop on Mac & PC and right now don't have an iOS project - so I took the leap. No issues with Catalina with Unity. However there are a few other minor annoyances; finder seems a bit unstable with network drives (force restart is your friend), time machine corrupts NAS backups, and the occasional mess-up with my dual monitor setup. Other than that it's been fine FYI.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • jeffhuys 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I had to install Mojave on another partition and I dual-boot to that if I need to use Unity. But the last time I used it was about 3 months ago, Unity might have gotten a few updates in the meantime.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • KingOfCoders 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              My main problem is with having an external monitor (LG) connected with USB-C. Sometimes it detects the right solution, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes when closing the laptop, sometimes that doesn't work either. Very frustrating in 2020.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • hurricanetc 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I am loving Catalina. The new Reminders app is a huge upgrade that allowed me to stop relying on shoddy third party apps. Using Apple Watch to authenticate is handy. Sidecar is useful as hell on business trips. iTunes is no longer a bloated unorganized mess of an application. Safari is dramatically better. Photos is better. Having screen time data on my Mac is great.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Catalyst has brought a handful of new macOS apps for me to use that were not available previously. Several that I use on a daily basis.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                And I haven’t experienced any bugs or issues.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So I guess your mileage will vary. But if you hate macOS enough to write TWO blog posts about it why don’t you just switch to another platform???

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • filchermcurr 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  What Catalyst applications are you using? I haven't heard of any beyond Apple News, Swift Playgrounds, and I think maybe Twitter? Definitely interested in trying more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • hurricanetc 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Carrot Weather, JIRA, and Rosetta Stone. There may be others that are Catalyst that I am not even aware of. But I use those three heavily on a daily basis.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • tannhaeuser 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Even if I wanted to upgrade my old Mini (by having a new OS on an external HD), Mojave and Catalina won't let me because required APFS support for EFI comes only as part of the 6GB Mojave (or Catalina) download/install, rather than as separately downloadable BIOS upgrade. Even bought a flash drive and ordered to have Mojave installer copied to it at an Apple retailer only to find out that it doesn't work like that anymore. After many years of good use in the 2010s, for me the Mac has lost it's practical side where you could use disk target mode, boot from external HD, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Edit: 2000s not 2010s

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • newscracker 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Someone somewhere must have faced the same issue as you. I’d suggest searching on Reddit and the Macrumors forums. Worst case, you can install Linux and continue using it (though the experience may not be the same in many ways).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • tannhaeuser 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Re installing Linux: I did that many years ago already ;) I used to enjoy an alternative Unix laptop provider and hate to see Apple fade away as an option. Regarding searching reddit and co, I briefly did, but then thought if I have to go to forums etc., I can just as well run Linux on a well-supported notebook in the first place.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • atonse 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have heard enough horror stories about stability and security prompts that it’s the first macOS release I’ll probably skip. Can’t afford to lose a day or more of productivity to fiddling with my OS.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • cerberusss 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      You do you, but the relentless flow of horror stories didn't stop me from upgrading and it was flawless for me. I'd recommend reading these critical pieces and seeing whether any of it actually applies to you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • llarsson 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Very difficult to know if it is going to apply to one's own system.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        With updates apparently sometimes crashing after being only partially applied, even the most diligent research into application-specific "will I be able to run XYZ after upgrading" might not be able to save you from having to reinstall from scratch.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This is the kind of low-quality handling of software updates that I never imagined coming from Apple.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I upgraded when it came out, had no issues, and only a few prompts. Because the machine was entirely new to me anyway (inherited MBP2016), I couldn't imagine having anything to lose. But on my older machine? Still have not upgraded. Don't see a reason to, until they've ensured higher quality.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • cerberusss 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          But your actual experience is that it worked fine, right?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have the idea that there's currently an atmosphere where it's fashionable to repeat other people's bad experiences. Regardless of one's own experience.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • atonse 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The main thing I get concerned about is homebrew packages. Because that's where all my dev work happens (everything else is browser based).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So there really is no way to know what packages are supported. Unless homebrew has a way to check..... I've never checked to see if it has a "compatibility check for catalina" mode

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • cerberusss 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm a commandline person and often prefer to use something from Homebrew instead of the graphical equivalent. I've got a dozen or so packages (besides whatever is installed via brew cask) and it's going well for me. If you reply with the output of "brew list", I have no problem with installing and testing packages you require.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • newscracker 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The security prompts apply for everyone who has and uses more than a few applications. There is no scope for individual differences there except for the number of prompts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • cerberusss 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            That's perhaps the difference between me and others. I like getting prompted if software attempts to read my Documents folder. I've got about a dozen packages installed via brew cask, plus a handful from the Mac App Store. The first day, most of them prompted me once or twice, but that was about the extent of it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It's basically like the prompts you get on iOS. I don't have a problem with these either.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • mark_l_watson 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am happy with the direction Apple is taking, locking down macOS. I have two Linux laptops I can mess with, I want my Macs as secure as possible.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • blablabla123 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It's the same with every Major update with breaking changes. This is not even macOS specific, if these updates wouldn't happen, every software would be like Windows or MS Office which stays backwards compatible for decades. It makes sense to adapt as user and also that developers need to adapt, e.g. to create 64 bit software. Also there are always work-arounds.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • zer0zzz 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Catalina has been mostly fine for me. My 2015 15” mbp has been a little unresponsive at times under dark mode but all my other laptops are doing great on it. Other than that, my work computer has all this stuff like Cisco and chef installed on it and it generally needs a reboot every other day. But generally my personal machines are fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • georgehaake 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              When I upgraded my 2019 mini I thought I bricked it. It was a couple of days of heroics to get it upgraded. Kind of a blur now. With the minor annoyances, not any more shitty in aggregate than before. (current 13" macbook pro - no upgrade issues at all)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • prpl 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My only gripe is that my login/wake up are slow for some reason (Macbook 16), but I can't pinpoint it or rule out IT shenanigans.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I appreciate the security, I'm happy that many of the apps don't get to shit all over my Documents directory as easily anymore.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • nonamenoslogan 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm a Macperson but for my primary Mac (Retina iMac), I refuse to upgrade simply because of my 32bit apps. I still have plenty of them that work as designed and have no interest in purchasing newer versions just because Apple says so.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • m000 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Time Machine is the Internet Explorer of backup software. Change my mind.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • foxx-boxx 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Upgrading is a mess, if you for instance replaced a disk. It’s clearly a software design and such move is unnecessary. I wouldn’t upgrade unless I really have to. It’s painful.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • jasoneckert 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm still using Mojave for the simple reason that there's a 32-bit app that I absolutely need to have, and Catalina doesn't run 32-bit apps anymore.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • lovetocode 284 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Catalina totally wrecked my development environment for Ruby versions < 2.4. The only positive result is that we are running 2.6 now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • mistrial9 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            the people who are not complaining are in two camps ? the aggregate of Homebrew / Web devs / terminal users; and on the other hand the unaware consumers with their lives in the browser and simple purchases. ps- I am looking at a 10.7 machine directly in front of me, and there are two more nearby... zero interest in Catalina here

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • antihero 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I was pretty sad I can’t play counter strike 1.6 every so often any more. Is there a way to rollback?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • szines 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My recommendation is that never update only clean install. I never had any problem with macOS.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • joelrunyon 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Still holding off on this. Is the consensus to just keep waiting for the next one to drop?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • newscracker 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Unless the next release announced in WWDC 2020 is one that clearly says it’s about stability and is low on new features, I’ll be holding off on any upgrades. Mojave will have security updates for another year or so.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • Spacemolte 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      That's what i usually do. I'm only on catalina now because i got a new macbook and it came preinstalled.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • ssijak 286 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Let me count the votes and I'll let you know...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • briandear 285 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am not sure who the author is, but why are so many people emailing him about Catalina? As far as the people who didn’t know about the new Music app, spotlight searching for iTunes will bring up Music.