Just responding to some of the comments here about how ballet is "tragic" in that it requires such sacrifice of it's dancers.
I disagree. Yes, it does require sacrifice, but no more really than any high level athletes. I think a lot of unhealthy ideals in the dance world are/have changed. Unfortunately, Balanchine was responsible for many of the worst tendencies in the ballet world, e.g. an obsession with skinniness and complete disregard for dancer's mental health.
Now, though, dancers are also rightfully seen as athletes, strength is seen as beauty, and much more attention is paid to their mental and physical health. Yes, ballet movement is unnatural, but it can be done in a way that doesn't destroy someone's body (and mind).
One difference with other athletes is that, as with gymnasts, dancers have to start really early in their childhood (because they peak earlier than other sports, due to the kind of preferred body type), so you are asking a sacrifice to a 9-12 year old that in most sports is not required until 13-18 or whatever, at an age where many things are decided for them by their parents instead of by them.
Not to take away from your comment, but I wanted to highlight another sport that requires similar sacrifice at an early age, which is the male dominated sport of F1 racing. Many top drivers are the result of training and competing at 7-8 years of age in kart racing. I would say they "peak" later than a ballerina/gymnast but require the same early sacrifice to be a top athlete.
You don’t make many physical sacrifices in racing though. You have to be in good shape but You don’t have to go to extremes like gymnasts do. There actually would be a big advantage if you brought up racers with stunted growth that are short and weigh little but thank god this doesn’t seem to be happening.
But you don't have to "sacrifice" anything to participate in kart racing. It's not even a physically demanding activity. All you need is enough money to compete, but that's the parent's responsibility at that age, so not even that.
oh yes, also for car racing the financial sacrifice from parents that are not rich.
And the sacrifice for the whole family in terms of time and money when one kid in any sport is good enough to go on travel teams (in the US/Canada this level is not very high) and the whole routine of the family around weekends and holidays are planned around those traveling sports events.
One thing to keep in mind is that in dance, gymnastics, or figure skating non-competitive kids/families are usually identified early and then directed into recreational programs. By 12 YO most girls are in the recreational tracks rather than competitive or pre-professional tracks.
Also, by 12 years old, the kids are motivating themselves. If the parents are pushing them at this point, they will soon quit or move to recreational programs.
The amount of training or practice time is relatively minor for kids until they hit 12+ years old. And, then it is just the few the that remain in competitive/pre-professionsal programs that ramp up the training intensity.
While some families with money do over train kids when they are little, it really isn't much of an advantage because physical/natural talent begins to separate kids around 10-12 years old such that the excess early training during ages 5-9 is washed out. Thus, a 7 year old that is taking 5 lessons a week will excel as compared to most other 7-10 year olds that are taking 1 or 2 lessons per week. But if kids join the competitive ranks everyone is taking 3-4-5 lessons per week and the early lessons don't make that much difference anymore because anyone who is competitive will have caught up.
Ballet training has a similar split, where kids at a certain age/level are invited to the academy/pre-professional divisions that require 3-4+ classes a week. Otherwise, they drop into recreational dance (which can still be grueling but it is not on a professional track).
Source: My daughter was a competitive figure skater. She also competed in rhythmic gymnastics until it interfered too much with figure skating. Her training included a serious amount of ballet, she did a year or two of pointe before moving away from ballet. She turned to Chinese dance after turning down an invitation to join her ballet school academy/pre-professional division.
My daughter retired from competitive skating in her junior year of high school. She kept up the Chinese dance and did track and field until she went to West Point (USMA).
It was an awesome ride while it lasted. Expensive, time consuming, but very
much worth it.
However, I could never recommend artistic gymnastics except for little kids. It causes way too many injuries and requires too much gym time. I can't remember the levels - but as soon as the full height balance beam comes into play it is time to switch to recreational or move on. In our case, that is when we switched our daughter to Rhythmic.
Note, my son was doing little league baseball and basketball in elementary school, and then select teams in middle school, select and varsity in HS. He had more injuries than my daughter (some severe ankle sprains in high school).
How many professional ballet dancers don't have at least some significant permanent damage to their feet, legs, and spine?
Looser forms of contemporary dance can certainly be done safely. But there's a good case to be made for classical en pointe ballet being inherently physically dangerous to the point of being abusive, in a way that few other artistic or athletic activities are - outside of sports that rely on overt brutality, like boxing or MMA.
Just because it's clothed in swirly skirts and made-up prettiness doesn't mean it doesn't have a barbaric edge to it.
In college I took a course called Anatomy for Dance seeking to help my martial arts practice. The course covered muscular and skeletal anatomy as well as the basics of stretching and strength training. Other than myself everyone in the class was a dance major (and I think that all of them were specifically ballet majors but I'm not certain).
Two things that I recall:
Some of the girls already had arthritis.
Some of the girls expressed concern that if they developed the muscles that support dance (if I remember correctly it was specifically the hamstrings that were being discussed) it might result in a figure that was considered negative for a ballerina.
There are a number of physical impositions placed on ballerinas. They are expected to have a small head, a long neck, small breasts, narrow hips and thin, graceful limbs. Mutilation of the feet to complete the illusion is simply part of the package...
Misty has the prototypical physique of a modern dancer but prefers the classical repertoire. Hopefully one day the two will merge and leave en pointe behind as a curious relic...
And here I thought China had the only culture in history that would torture women's feet... Sheesh, the image requirements society puts on women, especially on female performers, is insane.
My girlfriend trained in ballet throughout her childhood and teenage years -- like so many other girls she wanted to be a ballerina. Today she has a hammer toe, her ankles are shot, and she needs a hip replacement.
Still the most fun girl to dance with, though, when she can manage the pain.
It would still be beautiful without the pointe. For some reason, in many activities, people tend to go to the greatest lengths for even the smallest gains... ballet without pointe would still be ballet, I think non-experts like me would barely notice if they stopped using those - yet all ballet dancers sacrifice their feet for that perhaps last 2%. Why isn't there any ballets that just don't use pointe? Perhaps there is, would be nice to get to know about them.
I think that part of the allure and magic of ballet is exactly this perfection, this going for the last few percents.
But I agree with you that dance without pointe can be great.
I went a unconventional way as a dancer. I discovered dance relatively late in my life, quit my computer science phd and did a bit unconventional contemporary dance education, which had almost no classical Ballet training. So I don’t know so much about what’s going on in the Ballet world. But I do think that not all contemporary Ballet dancers use pointe.
Also, most contemporary dancers are trained in Ballet as well and depending on the style of the artists contemporary dance can contain more or less Ballet elements without doing pointe work.
Or for example these scene of performances by Pina Bausch and Peeping Tom, which are maybe a bit less classical, but performed by excellent dancers, who are also trained classically.
https://youtu.be/J3i7r79dtFohttps://youtu.be/b1SIUcfS1Zw
In general there has been a lot of progress in working with the body, not against it, especially in contemporary dance, but also in Ballet.
Whether it actually is even 2% more beautiful is entirely subjective. Disciplines that are entirely subjective and cultural tend to develop memetic inbreeding, and one of the ways to reach "ever greater heights" in such an art is with costly signaling. Claims that such and such arbitrary sacrifice is necessary for a higher ideal or beauty are easy to sustain through dogma (because there is no truly objective beauty).
An example: Kyokushin, the "full contact" karate of its time, is now a shell of its former self, with simultaneous xenophobia and infighting. It's lost touch by declining to be tested against reality, and now you have 100kg practitioners being pummeled by 65kg MMArtists[1]. You hear the exact same memes about following tradition and sacrificing the body in order to attain a higher ideal.
In ballet, being invited into pointe class is a big deal coming of age for ballet dancers. It represents their first step to becoming a real ballet dancer. Dancers don't get to do pointe until/unless they are good enough. It takes a few years of non-pointe ballet and not everyone gets invited to do it.
I think it appeals to people who strive to be recognized as elite members of a group. My daughter couldn't wait to get into pointe class. However, once she got in and did it a couple a years she moved on from ballet. But she still gets admiration when it comes up that she did pointe and was in a couple of Nutcrackers.
I remember when my daughter's cohort were invited to start pointe. They were all so proud and happy. Now, for the first time the Ballet Mistress would spend time with them, personally showing them how to sew the ribbons on their toe shoes, talking to them about foot care and pain, and so on.
It is a bit like if a figure skater learns to land single Axels in competition. Most people never get there. (Let alone triples or quads that we are used to seeing on TV). Landing single Axels in competition was the first separator of competitive skaters from recreational skaters. I think pointe is similar in ballet.
> in many activities, people tend to go to the greatest lengths for even the smallest gains
It's a show-off / machismo thing. In our own field I'd relate it to the culture of extreme workaholism. If you are working 100 hour work weeks you are almost certainly not being productive for anywhere near that many hours unless you are on drugs, and that's sustainable for at most a week or two before you crash hard. In my experience people who claim that kind of loony work week are usually lying. The only exception seems to be natural manic personalities, but that mutation comes with its own set of serious drawbacks.
I think it more related to a mastery of a skill that is difficult to master. Such that knowing that skill sets one apart from the average programmer.
I am not sure of a good example tech, but maybe something like being the one person in the shop that has completely mastered a subject matter area that others haven't bothered to learn because it is too hard/confusing? Maybe, the device driver coder versus the application coder, etc. The amount of hours put in grinding at the office may be the same, but some people have mastered skills that are perceived as elite over other skills.
Pointe is a first level elite skill in Ballet. Some dancers may learn pointe faster or slower than others, but most dancers never will. By the time dancers are decent/comfortable on pointe and yet still far from professional level, they will be in an elite group.
edit-to-add: A big weakness with my analogous examples is that I feel that any decent programmer can learn device drive programming, difficult APIs, new data structures/algos, and so on, if they put the time in.
In contrast, many dancers that would like to dance pointe will be unable to, no matter how hard they try. Same with figure skaters who want to land a single Axel in competition. Chess mastery might be a good example too.
Why isn't there any ballets that just don't use pointe?
The kind of people who wouldn't notice if ballet dancers stopped doing pointe aren't the kind of people who fund ballet companies' new works of choreography.
They're probably quite happy seeing Swan Lake or The Nutcracker or Romeo and Juliet - iconic, traditional works. Nothing wrong with that, of course! But a ballet watcher will almost certainly recognise pointe well before they encounter a work less than 30 years old.
I disagree. Yes, it does require sacrifice, but no more really than any high level athletes. I think a lot of unhealthy ideals in the dance world are/have changed. Unfortunately, Balanchine was responsible for many of the worst tendencies in the ballet world, e.g. an obsession with skinniness and complete disregard for dancer's mental health.
Now, though, dancers are also rightfully seen as athletes, strength is seen as beauty, and much more attention is paid to their mental and physical health. Yes, ballet movement is unnatural, but it can be done in a way that doesn't destroy someone's body (and mind).
And the sacrifice for the whole family in terms of time and money when one kid in any sport is good enough to go on travel teams (in the US/Canada this level is not very high) and the whole routine of the family around weekends and holidays are planned around those traveling sports events.
Also, by 12 years old, the kids are motivating themselves. If the parents are pushing them at this point, they will soon quit or move to recreational programs.
The amount of training or practice time is relatively minor for kids until they hit 12+ years old. And, then it is just the few the that remain in competitive/pre-professionsal programs that ramp up the training intensity.
While some families with money do over train kids when they are little, it really isn't much of an advantage because physical/natural talent begins to separate kids around 10-12 years old such that the excess early training during ages 5-9 is washed out. Thus, a 7 year old that is taking 5 lessons a week will excel as compared to most other 7-10 year olds that are taking 1 or 2 lessons per week. But if kids join the competitive ranks everyone is taking 3-4-5 lessons per week and the early lessons don't make that much difference anymore because anyone who is competitive will have caught up.
Ballet training has a similar split, where kids at a certain age/level are invited to the academy/pre-professional divisions that require 3-4+ classes a week. Otherwise, they drop into recreational dance (which can still be grueling but it is not on a professional track).
Source: My daughter was a competitive figure skater. She also competed in rhythmic gymnastics until it interfered too much with figure skating. Her training included a serious amount of ballet, she did a year or two of pointe before moving away from ballet. She turned to Chinese dance after turning down an invitation to join her ballet school academy/pre-professional division.
My daughter retired from competitive skating in her junior year of high school. She kept up the Chinese dance and did track and field until she went to West Point (USMA).
It was an awesome ride while it lasted. Expensive, time consuming, but very much worth it.
However, I could never recommend artistic gymnastics except for little kids. It causes way too many injuries and requires too much gym time. I can't remember the levels - but as soon as the full height balance beam comes into play it is time to switch to recreational or move on. In our case, that is when we switched our daughter to Rhythmic.
Note, my son was doing little league baseball and basketball in elementary school, and then select teams in middle school, select and varsity in HS. He had more injuries than my daughter (some severe ankle sprains in high school).
Looser forms of contemporary dance can certainly be done safely. But there's a good case to be made for classical en pointe ballet being inherently physically dangerous to the point of being abusive, in a way that few other artistic or athletic activities are - outside of sports that rely on overt brutality, like boxing or MMA.
Just because it's clothed in swirly skirts and made-up prettiness doesn't mean it doesn't have a barbaric edge to it.
Two things that I recall:
Some of the girls already had arthritis.
Some of the girls expressed concern that if they developed the muscles that support dance (if I remember correctly it was specifically the hamstrings that were being discussed) it might result in a figure that was considered negative for a ballerina.
Still the most fun girl to dance with, though, when she can manage the pain.
But I agree with you that dance without pointe can be great.
I went a unconventional way as a dancer. I discovered dance relatively late in my life, quit my computer science phd and did a bit unconventional contemporary dance education, which had almost no classical Ballet training. So I don’t know so much about what’s going on in the Ballet world. But I do think that not all contemporary Ballet dancers use pointe.
Also, most contemporary dancers are trained in Ballet as well and depending on the style of the artists contemporary dance can contain more or less Ballet elements without doing pointe work.
See for example Wayne McGregor, whose performances look very classical to me: https://youtu.be/2SMmL6kIx-w
Or for example these scene of performances by Pina Bausch and Peeping Tom, which are maybe a bit less classical, but performed by excellent dancers, who are also trained classically. https://youtu.be/J3i7r79dtFo https://youtu.be/b1SIUcfS1Zw
In general there has been a lot of progress in working with the body, not against it, especially in contemporary dance, but also in Ballet.
An example: Kyokushin, the "full contact" karate of its time, is now a shell of its former self, with simultaneous xenophobia and infighting. It's lost touch by declining to be tested against reality, and now you have 100kg practitioners being pummeled by 65kg MMArtists[1]. You hear the exact same memes about following tradition and sacrificing the body in order to attain a higher ideal.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPt9c_0bsZc&feature=youtu.be...
That reminds me of the Monty Python joke:
"Why do they make all them all go on tip-toe? Why don't they just get taller dancers?"
//edit//And if you're interested in an article on the people that make the shoes:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-big-burly-blokes-who...
I think it appeals to people who strive to be recognized as elite members of a group. My daughter couldn't wait to get into pointe class. However, once she got in and did it a couple a years she moved on from ballet. But she still gets admiration when it comes up that she did pointe and was in a couple of Nutcrackers.
I remember when my daughter's cohort were invited to start pointe. They were all so proud and happy. Now, for the first time the Ballet Mistress would spend time with them, personally showing them how to sew the ribbons on their toe shoes, talking to them about foot care and pain, and so on.
It is a bit like if a figure skater learns to land single Axels in competition. Most people never get there. (Let alone triples or quads that we are used to seeing on TV). Landing single Axels in competition was the first separator of competitive skaters from recreational skaters. I think pointe is similar in ballet.
It's a show-off / machismo thing. In our own field I'd relate it to the culture of extreme workaholism. If you are working 100 hour work weeks you are almost certainly not being productive for anywhere near that many hours unless you are on drugs, and that's sustainable for at most a week or two before you crash hard. In my experience people who claim that kind of loony work week are usually lying. The only exception seems to be natural manic personalities, but that mutation comes with its own set of serious drawbacks.
I am not sure of a good example tech, but maybe something like being the one person in the shop that has completely mastered a subject matter area that others haven't bothered to learn because it is too hard/confusing? Maybe, the device driver coder versus the application coder, etc. The amount of hours put in grinding at the office may be the same, but some people have mastered skills that are perceived as elite over other skills.
Pointe is a first level elite skill in Ballet. Some dancers may learn pointe faster or slower than others, but most dancers never will. By the time dancers are decent/comfortable on pointe and yet still far from professional level, they will be in an elite group.
edit-to-add: A big weakness with my analogous examples is that I feel that any decent programmer can learn device drive programming, difficult APIs, new data structures/algos, and so on, if they put the time in.
In contrast, many dancers that would like to dance pointe will be unable to, no matter how hard they try. Same with figure skaters who want to land a single Axel in competition. Chess mastery might be a good example too.
They're probably quite happy seeing Swan Lake or The Nutcracker or Romeo and Juliet - iconic, traditional works. Nothing wrong with that, of course! But a ballet watcher will almost certainly recognise pointe well before they encounter a work less than 30 years old.