• mrweasel 114 days ago
    Is there something inherently complicated in adding a SATA/M.2 port to board like this?

    The RaspberryPi is also "disk-less", which to me is one of the major limitations.

    It's a super interesting little board, and I love that it's a RISC-V, that could really help getting the CPU in the hands of people. I just don't know enough about these things to understand why there are no storage connectors (other than an SD card slot).

    • 1vuio0pswjnm7 113 days ago
      On the systems I can control, I do all work "disk-less". I strongly prefer it. I like to keep programs and data segregated. The basic setup on NetBSD is as follows, with endless variations possible therefrom. The kernel(s) and userland(s), along with bootloader(s), are on external media, like an SD card or USB stick, marked read-only. There's a RAM-disk in the kernel with a multi-call binary-based userland (custom-made using BusyBox or crunchgen). After boot, a full userland from external media or the network is mounted on tmpfs-based or mfs-based overlay and then we chroot into the full userland. From there, the work space is all tmpfs (RAM).^1 I can experiment to heart's content without jeopardising the ability to reboot into a clean slate. The "user experience" is also much faster than with disk-based. Any new "data" that is to be retained for future use across reboots is periodically saved to some USB or Ethernet connected storage media. I do not use "cloud" for personal data. Sorry. This forces me to think carefully about what needs to be saved and what is just temporary. It helps prevent the accumulation of cruft. The number one benefit of this for me though is that I can recover from a crash instantly and without an internet connection. No dependencies on any corporation.

      This BeagleV looks like it would work well for me as it has Ethernet and USB ports.

      1. With NetBSD, I can run out of memory with no major problems. With Linux, this has not been the case. I have to be more careful.

      • znpy 113 days ago
        > 1. With NetBSD, I can run out of memory with no major problems.

        Could you elaborate a bit more on that, please ?

        It's been a while since I last touched NetBSD, but I don't remember anything special regarding that aspect.

        • knorker 113 days ago
          The OOM killer makes running out of memory on Linux not fun. I've found that turning of overcommit avoids this problem.

          Then again, I've seen BSDs handle it even worse.

          • 1vuio0pswjnm7 113 days ago
            "I've found that turning of overcommit avoids this problem."

            ("tuning of" or "turning off")

            Do you mean something like

               sysctl vm.overcommit_memory=2
            • k_sze 113 days ago
              The grand parent maybe meant “turning off”. One could argue that’s the ultimate “tuning”. :P
              • knorker 113 days ago
                I meant "turning off". Sorry. Yes, something exactly like that.

                Seems too late to edit now.

            • 1vuio0pswjnm7 113 days ago
              I disable swap. If I run out of RAM, thrashing may occur but it is not fatal. Some process that needs to write to "disk" might fail, but the system does not. I just delete some file(s) to free up the needed RAM, restart the process and continue working. I don't think NetBSD has anything like "OOM killer".

              Note that one drawback with "disk-less" via read-only SD card or USB stick is how to have a good source of entropy at boot time.

            • lovelyviking 113 days ago
              This is interesting setup. Do you know a good guide for such setup?
              • 1vuio0pswjnm7 113 days ago
                I actually came up with this myself just playing around with NetBSD. You will probably not find anyone advocating disabling swap. I do not run X11 anymore. I stay in VGA textmode. Doubt anyone would want to do exactly what I do. NetBSD users tend toward DIY and each has their own preferences. If you study how NetBSD's install media are created that will teach you almost everything you need to know. Happy to walk you through it though if you want to try NetBSD.

                Chromebooks are claimed to be 100% safe from certain types of attacks. The developers came up with this silly "whitewash" gimmick. Their motivation for a disk-less-like system is to force users to store personal data in the cloud. Ugh. Well, the disk-less systems I have been creating for recreational use long before Chromebooks existed are just as safe. Probably safer because I do not use a graphics layer or a web browser with Javascript interpeter.

                • lovelyviking 113 days ago
                  >I actually came up with this myself just playing around with NetBSD. You will probably not find anyone advocating disabling swap.

                  Actually I saw recently some discussion exactly about that. I think many people would be glad to do it if they new how. It is not easy when you relatively new in the area. It is not too complicated but a lot of information and it is not obvious what is important and what not, so you read all and get overwhelmed easily.

                  >I do not run X11 anymore. I stay in VGA textmode. Doubt anyone would want to do exactly what I do.

                  I do exactly what you do, simply because x11 is not working on Pi with TV I have and I have nothing more since MBPro has simply died. (if you wish details, see here ”how“: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25778247 )

                  >If you study how NetBSD's install media are created that will teach you almost everything you need to know. Happy to walk you through it though if you want to try NetBSD.

                  Thank you very much. This advice is already precious, because it helps to orient yourself in tons of info, and now I would know where to start digging. I would love to try once I’ll have equipment and time. I really wish to encourage you though to write down this process, I am sure there are some people who are desperately looking for this setup and how to achieve it properly, bothered with many questions. This guide could also be a good practical introduction into a NetBSD by the way.

                  >Chromebooks are claimed to be 100% safe from certain types of attacks. The developers came up with this silly "whitewash" gimmick. Their motivation for a disk-less-like system is to force users to store personal data in the cloud. Ugh.

                  it’s a shame really and done for wrong purpose. I never considered Chromebooks seriously for that reason.

                  >Well, the disk-less systems I have been creating for recreational use long before Chromebooks existed are just as safe. Probably safer because I do not use a graphics layer or a web browser with Javascript interpreter.

                  What I really like about it is the ability of fast recovery, which gives more freedom for experiments. I love it.

                  • 1vuio0pswjnm7 112 days ago
                    Note I did all the experiments many years ago, on i386, and using NetBSD's venerable bootloader. For the Pi, some things will differ obviously.

                    Not only does this type of setup give freedom for experiments (which NetBSD really does in general) but it makes expts easier. You can put multiple different kernels on the USB stick and reboot into each of them to test pros and cons of different release versions and/or configurations. Or you might boot one computer with kernel A, pull out the stick, insert into another computer and boot kernel B and run them simultaneously. No HDDs needed.

                    I might do a writeup; some users have done writeups on "disk-less" in the distant past. I have some simplification tricks no one has ever written about. However NetBSD has such great documentation relative to almost every other project and the developers tend to be "quietly competent" in the best way. It was never a culture of "HOW-TO's" as you will find in Linux. Studying the source and following source-changes and other mailing lists is better than any writeup, IMO.

                    It is like the old saw about teaching a man to fish. It is worth learning. Things do not change in NetBSD so fast or dramatically that what you have learnt will be later considered "obsolete".

                    • lovelyviking 112 days ago
                      I would agree that following source-changes is better then any writeups if there is time and dedication. I like the culture you describe and it could fit very well with the way I like to do things. I use those “how to” just as quick tutorial to get into the new topics and then I go deeper. It is easier to learn when you actually do something and if there is no person around who can introduce me into the topic properly which is much faster and better of course then I use some “how-to” for that. Writeups can help too so if you know some good ones it’s worth mentioning.
            • brucehoult 114 days ago

              PCIe, 16 GB DDR4, two M.2 (one for storage, one WIFI), quad core 1.5 GHz (same cores as this board, but twice as many)

              • kwdc 113 days ago
                Sensible spec. The price isn’t outlandish for what is basically a desktop with a relatively exotic CPU. 16GB ram is minimum for development in my view even though you can do a lot in 8GB.

                I'm sure people would start comparing it pricewise to a i7 or something made at significant economies of scale. I think that is an unfair comparison due to the exotic CPU. Exotic in the sense that these aren't commodity CPUs.

                • mrweasel 114 days ago
                  That's a little costly, but I guess development of a board like that isn't cheap.
                  • brucehoult 114 days ago
                    Existing is the first step. Prices will reduce in time -- probably quite rapidly.
                    • edsouza 114 days ago
                      The board has 16GB DDR4 memory on board, that's probably one of the most costly components.
                      • jandrese 113 days ago
                        16GB DDR4 2400 DIMMs run about $67 retail. So about 1/10 of the total cost of that board. It's a little apples and oranges, but since it seems like they just plucked down the same 8 chips you'd find on a DIMM right to the board maybe not that much.

                        I note that it has a PCIe x8 slot, but they don't have drivers for a video card (or any card) yet so it's kinda useless.

                        • brucehoult 113 days ago
                          People have been running Radeon graphics cards with Linux desktop and the open source driver on the predecessor HiFive Unleashed board for literally three years already.

                          SiFive demonstrates the HiFive Unmatched using a $300 150W Radeon RX580. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVsnnYuvDXI

                          You can complain that you don't want to spend that much on a graphics card [1] but you can't complain that it's not supported.

                          [1] cheaper ones will work too

                          • jandrese 113 days ago
                            Then they should probably mention that on their page, which only says that graphics cards are being planned for but not currently supported.
                  • seabird 114 days ago
                    You would have to integrate a storage controller into your design and verify that it works. It's not insurmountable, but it's engineering time that has to go toward something that a lot of people aren't ever going to use, along with an increase in BOM cost.
                    • stormbrew 113 days ago
                      My pet peeve about all these small single board computers is that none of them have multiple ethernet ports, which severely limits their usefulness as networking hardware. They'd otherwise be very well suited to being various kinds of packet routing appliances.

                      You can sometimes hang a usb ethernet dongle off them but performance on those tend to be somewhat limited.

                      • johnwalkr 113 days ago
                        Check out solidrun, they have a variety of boards with multiple Ethernet ports.

                        I used to wonder why embedded boards didn’t have multiple Ethernet boards and why it’s not common to use ethernet to connect to peripherals instead of “old interfaces”. Until I tried it for a project. It turns out Ethernet uses roughly 0.5 to 2W per port depending on speed (that’s 1-4W per connection).

                        • guidoism 113 days ago
                          Several of the boards from Friendly ELEC have dual ethernet: https://www.friendlyarm.com
                          • gorgoiler 113 days ago
                            I use consumer (Netgear) switches with VLAN support to enforce network separation.

                            The actual routing is done as a router-on-a-stick. It’s not perfect but it’s simple, scalable, and reliable.

                            • exporectomy 113 days ago
                              Perhaps what you want is a range of boards with many combinations of features. Some with 4xethernet, some with 2xethernet, some with PCIE and 1xethernet, some with M.2 and PCIE, some with M.2 and 2xethernet, etc. to fill out that big matrix of combinations. But is the market big enough for such a huge range to be economical?

                              Some of them have PCIE which you could connect a network card to. That seems like a more practical way to allow flexibility than having a lot of special purpose boards.

                              • bentcorner 113 days ago
                                Depending on your bandwidth (especially if you have an asymmetric connection like cable) using it as a router-on-a-stick with vlans should work.

                                On lower end hardware you'd probably get higher throughput over the single link than trying to add a USB LAN adapter to it.

                                • nomel 113 days ago
                                  > have multiple ethernet ports

                                  Could you say more about the use case you have in mind?

                                  • Teever 113 days ago
                                    I would imagine that a person who wants multiple ethernet ports on an SBC would be interested using the SBC as a router or firewall.
                                • vhodges 114 days ago
                                  You might be interested in the RockPro64 which comes with a PCIe 2.0x4 slot for all your HBA needs.



                                  • wipt 111 days ago
                                    The support for PCIe cards is very limited on that board. I've spent too much time trying to get a disk controller to work, and I'm not alone. I ended up buying old server boards with low power xeon processors to accomplish my goal.
                                  • mlyle 114 days ago
                                    No, not too complicated, though connectors of all kinds take lots of space (both physical space and routing). Not to mention the amount of power that SATA drives might take.

                                    HardKernel/ODroid has things like the oDroid-HC4.

                                    Also, USB3-to-SATA isn't completely crazy to do.

                                    • Octoth0rpe 114 days ago
                                      FWIW, I believe the IO boards available for the Pi4 CM variants have a PCIe slot that could use used for storage: https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/compute-module-4-io-boa...

                                      Lack of sata/m.2 port is very frustrating to me.

                                      • mbreese 114 days ago
                                        You can certainly use the PCIe support on the RPi 4 CM with a SATA controller. Either with a PCIe SATA card on the IO board you linked, or by building a custom board.

                                        The Turing Pi project looks to do that with their next version: https://turingpi.com/v2/

                                        Should be much more stable than a USB3 connection.

                                      • qwerty456127 114 days ago
                                        Why would you need SATA when you have SD, also USB3 and Gigabit Ethernet? I have no problem booting from the SD then accessing data on my SATA drives using a USB-attached controller, also plan to get a NAS.

                                        Sure, it would be great to have connectors for everything and support for every cool standard but these guys have to give up all what is non-essential to keep it small, cheap and possible to engineer by a small team.

                                        • cogman10 114 days ago
                                          Honestly I just wish there was a faster standard than SD. 100MB/s for solid state is just incredibly slow now-a-days.

                                          There's no reason you couldn't kick SD transfer speeds up towards SSD speeds other than the protocol doesn't allow for it.

                                          • blkbjhjkl 113 days ago
                                            I wish folks would stop conflating boot media and root media. There's no reason your SD card has to consist of anything more than u-boot.

                                            SD is fantastically simple, so that the boot rom can get at a bootloader without much effort (generally the bootrom just looks at a memory offset on the mmc device). Once you start speaking newer faster protocols, this simplicity is lost. You're not likely going to find a bootrom that implements all the bits needed to get u-boot from a sata device.

                                            In a perfect world, once these are no longer developer devices, the mmc would be replaced with some spi flash (or even an emmc) with just u-boot.

                                            On 90% of embedded dev systems, you're better off thinking of the sd card as a "bios chip" then a hard drive. The fact you can also use it as a block device to store a rw filesystem is almost incidental, and should probably be avoided.

                                            • brucehoult 113 days ago
                                              SD cards speak SPI. In fact SPI is all SiFive supported on their first 2018 HiFive Unleashed. As you say, it's good enough to bootstrap. That old board has gigE. Once you're up enough to TFTP you're away. I've never actually bothered to set that up on mine -- I boot a full kernel with NFS support and then switch to that.
                                              • imtringued 113 days ago
                                                >There's no reason your SD card has to consist of anything more than u-boot.

                                                Oh, that's a nice idea! It would be nice if you linked to a guide or wiki page so that more people can replicate your setup.

                                              • qwerty456127 113 days ago
                                                The existence of Raspberry Pi as it is, Raspberry Pi 4 in parricular, is is a huge leap forward for the humanity already. The next leap is going to be the same kind of board but with no connectors besides an increasing number of full Thunderbolt 4 ports letting you connect anything you can imagine (incl as many GPIO connectors as you need). There is no need in a zoo of connectors like M.2, U.2, SATA, HDMI etc when we can conduct PCIe, DisplayPort and USB over a unified standard wire.
                                                • qwerty456127 113 days ago
                                                  By the way, switching to a single super-fast (for the time) connector for everything (including internal hard drives) was already anticipated before the invention of SATA and even USB2 - FireWire (IEEE 1394) was meant for that.
                                                • tenebrisalietum 113 days ago
                                                  There's value in having GPIO pins not behind any bus or controller at all. Don't Thunderbolt controllers need firmware uploaded and such before they start working? How complex is Thunderbolt device and bus enumeration?
                                                  • qwerty456127 112 days ago
                                                    Perhaps you're right. In fact I was going to write about connectors of 3 kinds: GPIO, dedicated fan connectors and Thunderbolt-enabled USB-C but then I came to the conclusion you can also put a GPIO controller or a fan on Thunderbolt the Occam's razor suggests we should only leave Thunderbolt - because we can. Apparently Apple thinks the same as it only left USB-C conectors on their recent laptops.
                                                • colejohnson66 113 days ago
                                                  CFast is CompactFlash, but with a SATA-based interface (up to ~600 MByte/sec) instead of IDE. It was designed because video cameras were making too much data for CF to handle. The downside is its size: 43x36x5 mm vs 15x11x1 mm for microSD.

                                                  Also, CFast aren’t as ubiquitous as microSD. I can go to Target or Walmart and get a wide “selection” of microSD, but I’d be hard pressed to find a CFast card. So the chances of an SBC using CFast over eMMC or microSD is low.

                                                  • panny 112 days ago
                                                    >Honestly I just wish there was a faster standard than SD

                                                    There is one. It's called UFS 3.0. The Sony Xperia 1 II has it. They're same size as MicroSD, but look slightly different.


                                                  • tenebrisalietum 114 days ago
                                                    SD cards are fragile.
                                                    • tubularhells 114 days ago
                                                      Because he wants to run a file server from it. This too was my first question.
                                                      • EamonnMR 114 days ago
                                                        I'm running a file server with a pi and a USB enclosure for a huge sata drive, and it works fine. Could be neater though.
                                                        • tubularhells 111 days ago
                                                          Yeah, I like data integrity and failsafe setups, so your solution feels to me like standing on 3 stacked chairs while fixing something with live wire.
                                                          • EamonnMR 108 days ago
                                                            It gets better, I'm powering the pi through its own powered USB hub. I was afraid doing so would short something but it's held up so far.
                                                    • lsb 114 days ago
                                                      You can get an SD card with 0.5TB capacity on it for USD$30, what storage needs do you foresee? Also these tend to be used where weight is an issue, so, why do you want to lug around a huge disk?
                                                      • cjbconnor 114 days ago
                                                        Nearly all SD cards that I've used in Pis and other SBCs have died unpredictably in the past, so I've pretty much given up on using them
                                                        • megous 113 days ago
                                                          Using f2fs and setting up the SW on my SBCs to not write data needlessly to SD card all the time (some programs are really bad at this), and having a very high quality power supply and cabling was enough to make my boards work for years on a single SD card. Some are at 4 years currently and still work fine. I'm using Sandisk only, since a few years ago, because it's the only manufacturer that allows me to verify online whether the card I bought is genuine and provides A1 rated cards at the same time. Experience with about 20 boards.
                                                          • adrianstoll 113 days ago
                                                            Samsung provides authentication software for their sd cards too.
                                                            • megous 113 days ago
                                                              Now that's interesting. I have a few dead samsung uSD cards, that I'd check for genuineness, if possible. I suspect they might have been a cheap clone.


                                                              I guess too little too late. None of the 4 dead Samsung cards I could find have the V mark (too old for that), required for validation, and they probably started adding support for regular EVO cards just a year ago or so.

                                                              • znpy 113 days ago
                                                                does it run on linux or do i need windows to run that? because if windows is needed then sandisk can get a chunk of my salary.
                                                                • megous 113 days ago
                                                                  It's a windows tool.
                                                              • novok 113 days ago
                                                                We shouldn't have to do that or special USB boot things that don't integrate well with extra cables sticking out of the form factor.
                                                              • moftz 113 days ago
                                                                I have a special SD card made up that has all of the correct boot configs set and a small script to update everything and set up the Pi for PXE boot. After everything is configured, I take out the SD card and let it just pull boot images over the network. My main home server serves everything up over tftp. The only downside is that you can't get this to work over wifi. The wifi Pis get read only SD cards that are all configured the same so it's easy to reimage a new one if the card dies.
                                                                • wyldfire 113 days ago
                                                                  This seemed to be such a frequent problem that I have up on ARM SBCs (despite how cool they are).

                                                                  Bought a cheap NUC with a disk and a BIOS and it is working like a champ - boots every time. I probably paid a little more but it's enough for my needs - a simple login and (occasional) DLNA server.

                                                                  • richardcrossley 113 days ago
                                                                    I bought a cheap used ultra small form factor PC with an i5, 8GB of RAM, all for less than 200 USD. It even included a licensed copy of Windows 7 Pro, which I don't use.
                                                                    • paulcarroty 113 days ago
                                                                      NUCs costs much more than Pi, even used.
                                                                      • wyldfire 113 days ago
                                                                        It costs more upfront, but it's worth it because I don't have to spend my time investigating why it's not working.

                                                                        Also, when comparing costs you should take into account things like enclosure, power supply, as card(s) etc.

                                                                        I'd say I probably paid around $250 or so for the NUC and a SODIMM and I had a SATA boot disk already. I had previously owned ODROID, libre computer (le potato), and Pi(s). These were probably in the ballpark of $80-$120 each, when including all the necessary equipment.

                                                                        • paulcarroty 111 days ago
                                                                          Agree on point paid more for features, but x2.5 price is debatable here.
                                                                    • Drdrdrq 114 days ago
                                                                      Same here. I now run them read only.
                                                                    • hajile 114 days ago
                                                                      I suspect they don't necessarily mean spinning platters. A SATA port also allows the connection of an SSD which is almost always a huge boost in usability over SD slots. The fact that you can add a large platter for a small NAS solution is just a nice option.

                                                                      I'd far rather see a 2x PCIe port that could be used for whatever you wanted.

                                                                      • tachyonbeam 114 days ago
                                                                        I think it's just that most people want to use the Raspberry Pi for toy projects. They're trying to keep the cost down, and to keep the board small. If you want something like micro ATX ARM motherboard, that's a different use case. The large majority of Raspberry Pi users are fine with USB 3.0 ports for I/O.
                                                                        • tjoff 114 days ago
                                                                          Most that are complaining about this just want something reliable.

                                                                          Raspberry pis are very popular as audio streamers, media centers that streams of the network, home automations etc.

                                                                          But all or them greatly suffer from the fact that it can randomly die on you. Which is quite frustrating.

                                                                          The only sensible solution (imho) to this currently is netbooting but it can be a hassle to setup in some cases.

                                                                          An integrated 16GB emmc would do wonders for everything mentioned above.

                                                                          • bsder 114 days ago
                                                                            We have an alternative to the RPi that has an eMMC. It's called a Beaglebone.

                                                                            And everybody bitches that the board is too expensive.

                                                                            • hajile 114 days ago
                                                                              A PI4 compute unit with 8GB of RAM instead of 1GB (faster, DDR4 instead of DDR3 too) and 32GB eMMC and a quad-core 64-bit CPU with much higher IPC while only costing $90 which is around $50 cheaper than a BeagleBoard AI (the same comparison exists for the Black too). You also get direct PCIe access to do what you want.

                                                                              Beagle just doesn't offer anywhere near the same value.

                                                                              • bsder 114 days ago
                                                                                The Black compared with the older RPi3. And everybody was always "The RPi3 is cheaper".

                                                                                The conversations always went like this:

                                                                                "Cheaper? So, did you count the SD card you need for the RPi?"

                                                                                "But it's cheaper."

                                                                                "And the special power supply because the RPi power systems suck?"

                                                                                "But it's cheaper."

                                                                                "And the keyboard and monitor because it doesn't run headless over USB?"

                                                                                "But it's cheaper."

                                                                                "... Okay, boss, it's cheaper. Go have fun."

                                                                                And that's before we even start talking about the lousy documentation of the RPi CPU chips. And the fact that the Ethernet was installed over the USB. etc.

                                                                                But the RPi was cheaper. Shrug. The guys at TI learned their lesson. Throw everything off the board and make it cheap--the hackers don't give a shit about anything else.

                                                                                • greyhair 113 days ago
                                                                                  Two different targets, I have used both. I have so many 5V power supplies sitting around, they git in the way. Including 12v/5v buck converters for auto stuff. You can configure for headless when you set up the SD card before you ever boot. I have never booted a Pi with attached display/keyboard.

                                                                                  The Pi is cheap, for a reason, but it is still more powerful than anything I use it for. But the same goes for the Beagle Board.

                                                                                  Choose the board you want, for the project you are doing.

                                                                                  Note: For every RPi project I have done, I have done two or three ESP8266/ESP32 projects along with five or six AVR/M0/M2 Arduino projects.

                                                                                  • imtringued 113 days ago
                                                                                    I'm always irritated by people calling it a $35 computer when you can get complete systems for just a little more.
                                                                                • tjoff 114 days ago
                                                                                  It doesn't have the same ecosystem. Which is half the point of the rpi to start with.

                                                                                  But if you vouch for it I'll take a closer look.

                                                                                  • bsder 114 days ago
                                                                                    > It doesn't have the same ecosystem. Which is half the point of the rpi to start with.

                                                                                    Now that's a valid argument. And I would argue it's way more than half.

                                                                                    If you want a one-off mumblesomething and can stay at the Linux OS level (ie. Web application, USB peripherals or maybe the most basic of GPIOs), the RPi ecosystem is going to let you get there much faster even though it will crash and burn occasionally. If that's "good enough" ... Douzou! ... Ganbatte! ... get moving and get going.

                                                                                    I have the same comment about Arduino. It ain't real reliable (but, to be fair, it's quite a bit more reliable than the RPis), but the ecosystem is awesome.

                                                                                    However, when you start asking something like "Gee, how do I send a single address byte over the I2C subsystem?" or "That signal needs a response in 50 nanoseconds, can I make that work?" you will thank the TI folks for producing that 5000 page (not joking or exaggerating) Technical Reference Manual.

                                                                                    One other thing that people who live in the RPi system always overlook in the Beagle ecosystem are the PRU cores. You can do HARD real-time work on those and still live in the Linux world. That's something that the RPi series just simply cannot do no matter how much you hack at them. And it often means the difference between a design which needs an FPGA and one that doesn't.

                                                                                    However, yes, you are going to live in that Technical Reference Manual for the Beagle series. If you're not comfortable doing that, then the Beagle stuff probably isn't for you.

                                                                                    There are really good reasons to use and love RPi's--ease of use is huge. But the whole "It's cheaper" thing just chaps my hide.

                                                                                    • tjoff 113 days ago
                                                                                      I'll take your word for it, but it sounds like a very different use-case than most use the pis for though.

                                                                                      When you spend that much time with your device cost isn't a factor (imho). But the pi is cheap enough that I can gift one if I know the end result will work well. And it is quite nice to just have one lying around for when you get an itch.

                                                                                      Using netboot I have never had an issue with the pi. All reliability problems I've experienced can be tracked down bad power and SD-cards (note: I have not used any IO other than USB). Both are annoying enough to look for alternatives but both are also fixable (netbooting likely disqualifies it for many usecases though).

                                                                                      Minimizing reads on the sd card usually means that they work at least several years untouched (in my experience, obviously limited sample size), which is likely good enough for many (a true read-only system might work even better). But when the audio streamer in the vacation cabin dies when you aren't around to fix it is still frustrating. So I'm in the moment of figuring out how to move the last of them to be netbooted. Which has some very nice side-effects as well, such as trivial remote system backup+restores.

                                                                                      It also comes down to time. I know the pi and the pitfalls. Researching an alternative would take many hours and I'd still have to experience some of them. If the goal of the project isn't to learn a new sbc then that alone is a dealbreaker.

                                                                                      That said, PocketBeagle seems to support wifi netboot (which neither the pi and pi zero w do). Might be able to find a project for that!

                                                                            • mrweasel 114 days ago
                                                                              I would love to see a Micro-ATX og Mini-ITX board with an ARM or RISC-V CPU, with PCIe ports and storage connectors. There are ARM boards, but they're a little pricy.
                                                                              • brucehoult 114 days ago

                                                                                PCIe, 16 GB DDR4, two M.2 (one for storage, one WIFI), quad core 1.5 GHz (same cores as this board, but twice as many)

                                                                                • unwind 114 days ago
                                                                                  At $679, that's more than "a little pricey" to me at least.
                                                                                  • brucehoult 113 days ago
                                                                                    Existing and shipping at all is the first step. Low price comes later, with volume.
                                                                                    • unwind 113 days ago
                                                                                      That makes sense and sounds logical, but (and I'm certainly no historian) didn't the Raspberry Pi debut at a low price?
                                                                                      • imtringued 113 days ago
                                                                                        The original Raspberry Pi was based on surplus stock of Broadcom's SoCs. It was a set top box chip that was produced in high volume.
                                                                                • vhodges 114 days ago
                                                                                  https://turingpi.com/v2/ is coming (soon?!?). Uses 1-4 Pi compute modules.
                                                                              • MisterTea 114 days ago
                                                                                SD cards are too slow to be of practical use as a general purpose disk. They're fine when you have a very predictable workload that does not involve a lot of disk IO.
                                                                                • mrweasel 114 days ago
                                                                                  The SD card on the Raspberry Pi is 50 MBps max, if I recall. That's a little slow if you want to use it as a small desktop.

                                                                                  I don't want to lug around anything, I want it to sit behind my monitor. Also an M.2 drive isn't that big, it could fit in many existing cases.

                                                                                  • btreecat 114 days ago
                                                                                    How about _reliable_ storage needs?
                                                                                    • numpad0 114 days ago
                                                                                      SD in itself isn't technically unreliable. Lots of smartphones do just fine with eMMC, which is same thing as microSD card except in nonstandard IC chip form thus can't carry SD branding.
                                                                                      • monocasa 114 days ago
                                                                                        Practically they end up being really different. SD Cards end up being bottom of the barrel flash chips (even from the 'good' brands), whereas eMMC uses flash good enough that you can count on it being non replaceable.

                                                                                        You want "industrial" cards from a vendor tailored to the space. I wouldn't trust even those new industrial sandisk cards.

                                                                                        • jschwartzi 114 days ago
                                                                                          Yeah as someone who has deployed SD-based and eMMC-based systems in industrial spaces, SD cards are hot garbage compared to eMMC and I would strongly recommend not using them in anything that needs to be reliable.
                                                                                          • jandrese 113 days ago
                                                                                            There should be a market for people who will pay extra for SD cards that:

                                                                                            1. Absolutely don't lie about their capacity

                                                                                            2. Have a reasonable MTBF

                                                                                            3. Are reliably fast

                                                                                            But instead we're all dealing with an industry that raced to the bottom years ago.

                                                                                            I'm concerned that the same mentality will infect the eMMC market eventually and it will become impossible to find quality parts after a couple of years.

                                                                                            • monocasa 113 days ago
                                                                                              What you're asking for does exist in the industrial market (and I'm skeptical of those 'industrial' branded sandisk cards). They still use pseudo SLC (storing one bit in every flash cell as 00(0) or 11(1) and correcting up or down on read back). They also will work with you so you can track BOM changes as they internally change the cards so you can track failure rates. They also give you access to tons of internal perf counters so you can do preventative maintenance (ie. swap the card if it's getting long in the tooth). They also just generally treat you as a business partner rather than a consumer, wrt support and what have you.

                                                                                              It costs a pretty penny though. $40 for a 2GB non micro card was the last quote I got.

                                                                                              • jandrese 113 days ago
                                                                                                Worth it if you're installing something like a Raspberry Pi in a ceiling mount screen that's a pain to access.
                                                                                        • imtringued 113 days ago
                                                                                          Technically it should be the same. In practice manufacturers make certain assumptions.

                                                                                          1. most SD card devices are battery powered

                                                                                          2. SD card failure is acceptable because they are replaceable

                                                                                          3. SD cards are not used as main storage for a computer

                                                                                          That leads to low quality SD cards.

                                                                                      • jwandborg 114 days ago
                                                                                        An M.2 SSD is not huge. In my experience, SD cards are way slower than SSDs for random access operations.
                                                                                        • stjohnswarts 114 days ago
                                                                                          compiling on SSD is so slow. I once compiled an rpi kernel on rpi just for fun and it took forever. Cross compiling is the only way to go for now, unless you only have a small project.
                                                                                          • jandrese 113 days ago
                                                                                            Raspberry Pis tend to be skimpy on memory. If it starts swapping it's going to be slow even on a fast SSD.
                                                                                        • jug 114 days ago
                                                                                          Cheap, slow (as an operating system medium at least), and unreliable. They're the modern day floppy disk. The one upside is that the space is cheap and quite plentiful.
                                                                                          • adamc 114 days ago
                                                                                            SD cards are kind of slow, though.
                                                                                          • numpad0 114 days ago
                                                                                            Yes; SATA host controller is an extra if the SoC don't come with one, connectors can't be cheap either. Too expensive as a nice-to-have item.
                                                                                            • happimess 114 days ago
                                                                                              I'm certainly no expert, but I've never been able to run a spinning disk HDD off of a raspberry pi without a powered USB hub. I imagine the thermals and form factor would be hurt pretty badly by including a plausible power supply.
                                                                                              • mrweasel 114 days ago
                                                                                                It wouldn't need to be a spinning disk, I'm think SSD or NVME
                                                                                                • mbreese 114 days ago
                                                                                                  I still need to run an SSD off of a powered hub for an RPi to use it stably.
                                                                                                  • hackmiester 114 days ago
                                                                                                    Strange. What Pi? I’ve had a spinning 2.5” HDD connected to a Pi 3B+ for a few years now.
                                                                                                    • mbreese 113 days ago
                                                                                                      RPI 4 -- the original revision. Whenever I ran it off the "official" power supply, I got disk errors. As soon as I moved over to a powered USB hub, I had no other issues. This was also with a keyboard and mouse plugged in, so maybe that had something to do with it.

                                                                                                      I was also trying to run it as a NAS, so it had a decent amount of IO.

                                                                                                      Maybe it could have been fixed with a better power supply, but switching over to the powered hub was easier to figure out.

                                                                                                      • znpy 113 days ago
                                                                                                        maybe you're running a 4200rpm disk and the other person is running a 7200rpm disk.

                                                                                                        faster-spinning-plates would draw more power, I guess.

                                                                                                  • mceachen 114 days ago
                                                                                                    Try a higher-quality power supply for your RPi.
                                                                                                    • jandrese 113 days ago
                                                                                                      Honestly even with a high quality supply I'd tend to prefer if the drive were externally powered. I have flashbacks to the first generation Pis that would brownout and reboot if you plugged in a mouse or keyboard while it was running.
                                                                                                    • artificialLimbs 114 days ago
                                                                                                      Running a spinny 2.5" 1TB drive on my pi zerow using a Samsung rapid charger to power the pi.
                                                                                                      • swebs 114 days ago
                                                                                                        The Rasperry Pi 4 can power an 2.5 HDD just fine.
                                                                                                      • TimSchumann 113 days ago
                                                                                                        If I had to guess, and this is just a guess, so take it with a grain of salt. I'd bet most storage devices these days are just thin wrappers around PCI-Express lanes, most of the hardware in the silicon running that stuff is on die for AMD/Intel CPU's and you likely run into cost/power/board space limitations in a device like this
                                                                                                        • SulfurHexaFluri 113 days ago
                                                                                                          If you want sata then your best bet is probably the Intel NUC. Still fairly small but as powerful as your average laptop.
                                                                                                          • Fnoord 113 days ago
                                                                                                            Aren't AMD NUCs supposed to be better now with Ryzen 2 and onward?
                                                                                                        • rjsw 114 days ago
                                                                                                          If you already have an SD card controller then an eMMC slot is probably the easiest upgrade.
                                                                                                          • jacquesm 114 days ago
                                                                                                            Mount a fileserver via NFS?
                                                                                                            • Rond 114 days ago
                                                                                                              Check out Khadas VIM3
                                                                                                            • TrueDuality 114 days ago
                                                                                                              I've been unable to use Beagle boards in the past as they ship with an old kernel and uboot without the sources to update or config them (this was specifically with the black variant). It probably had something to do with vendor NDAs with chipsets or something but it made them entirely unusable to me and more expensive than competitors by almost 2x to boot.

                                                                                                              I would love a RISC-V board to play with that is a bit more stable and about the size of a Raspberry Pi within a reasonable price range. The SiFive development boards are pretty pricey, definitely showcase hardware (look at all these peripherals or this is basically a desktop computer!).

                                                                                                              I'm hoping with the explicit call out of open hardware and open software that this board won't have the same issues as the Beaglebone Black...

                                                                                                              • Teknoman117 114 days ago
                                                                                                                The ubuntu on bbb team keeps up to date with the latest LTS kernels. There is 5.4 support and 5.10 support is in progress.

                                                                                                                The price wasn't so bad if you're in for the feature set (mainly the IO features). Using the embedded PRU controllers can replace the arduinos ones typically connects to their RPi.

                                                                                                                However, BBB is very old now. A single core cortex-A8 is abysmally slow.

                                                                                                                Getting the GPU working was always a pain. But I always used them headless so it wasn't an issue for me.

                                                                                                                • CameronNemo 113 days ago
                                                                                                                  The rk3328 board I have has been great. Quad Cortex A53, up to 4 GB of RAM, Mali GPU.
                                                                                                                • lsllc 114 days ago
                                                                                                                  Robert C. Nelson has been doing a stellar job of maintaining the omap-image-builder repo:


                                                                                                                  (and https://elinux.org/BeagleBoardUbuntu)

                                                                                                                  It's pretty easy to use to build an image for Debian Buster/Stretch or Ubuntu Bionic Beaver, he has various configurations that cover IoT, console only/headless, GUI and a few other combos. It's pretty easy to create your own config with the Kernel and packages that you want.

                                                                                                                  The images can be used for flashing to the eMMC via an SD card (or via USB).

                                                                                                                  I've found images built this way to up very up to date and absolutely rock solid thanks to Robert's curation.

                                                                                                                • bradfa 114 days ago
                                                                                                                  I've never had this problem with Beagle Boards and sources. Sure the kernel or u-boot that ship with them might be slightly older but sources have always been available.

                                                                                                                  And TI are quite decent at contributing to the upstream kernel and u-boot trees. Generally only a few months after a new TI SoC is announced there's enough support in the upstream u-boot and kernel to boot the board and do some useful things. Generally by the time silicon is buyable by mere mortals mainline is in pretty decent shape.

                                                                                                                  • bradstewart 114 days ago
                                                                                                                    The biggest reason I used them in production devices (and still use them at home) was the eMMC. Which made it well worth the price, even with the slow processor.

                                                                                                                    We had to work with the Balena.io (formerly resin.io) team to get full hardware support on the BealgeBone Green Wireless (wifi drivers were the biggest hangup, iirc) a few years, but they were incredibly responsive and have done a fantastic job maintaining a stable distro for these boards.

                                                                                                                    If you want a straightforward out-of-the-box experience, I highly recommend Balena.io.

                                                                                                                    • jandrese 113 days ago
                                                                                                                      The board I have has only 4GB of MMC on board which wasn't big enough for the later versions of the OS, but you could boot off of the SD instead if you held down a button on the board while powering it up.

                                                                                                                      There was a way to tweak it so you didn't have to hold the button down, but it was kinda involved IIRC so I never got around to it.

                                                                                                                    • basher 114 days ago
                                                                                                                      • sradman 114 days ago
                                                                                                                        > Although the first hardware run will be entirely $140 / 8GiB systems, lower-cost variants with less RAM are expected in following releases.

                                                                                                                        > The initial pilot run of BeagleV will use the Vision DSP hardware as a graphics processor, allowing a full graphical desktop environment under Fedora. Following hardware runs will include an unspecified model of Imagine GPU as well.

                                                                                                                        Sounds like a direct competitor to the Raspberry Pi. I don't know if the Imagine GPU planned for the next iteration is playing catch-up or leapfrog. The Arstechnica article links to SiFive creates global network of RISC-V startups [1] which I think demonstrates that SiFive is strategically leveraging or responding to the geopolitics surrounding Chinese technology.

                                                                                                                        [1] https://www.eenewsanalog.com/news/sifive-creates-global-netw...

                                                                                                                        • rhn_mk1 114 days ago
                                                                                                                          Imagination GPU :( Notorious for being hard to support in open source. I'm not even sure there was a single free driver for those.

                                                                                                                          That likely means those devices are going to be stuck on an outdated kernel, unless Imagination steps in and provides ongoing binary support for newer kernels for their GPUs like x86 GPU manufacturers do. However, this being RISC-V with 2 existing devices total, I don't count on it.

                                                                                                                          So close, yet so far.

                                                                                                                          • brucehoult 113 days ago
                                                                                                                            Imagination have said they're open-sourcing the drivers for the GPU on another RISC-V board that's supposed to be coming soon (PicoRio).

                                                                                                                            Probably those work here too.

                                                                                                                            • justaj 112 days ago
                                                                                                                              Is it me or does it really feel obnoxious for vendors to then be claiming their hardware to be "TRULY OPEN SOURCE"?
                                                                                                                            • blihp 114 days ago
                                                                                                                              Except for cost... which has been a problem for the BeagleBoard line of SBC's since the beginning. They actually predated the original Raspberry Pi by a couple of years but when the Pi came in at ~25% of the cost, they caught up and overtook the BeagleBoard in popularity fast. The BeagleV looks interesting from an early adopter standpoint but the hobbyist market will probably standardize around whatever decent RISC-V board comes in at sub-$50 first.
                                                                                                                              • tyingq 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                To me, they seem to serve different markets. The various BeagleBoards have more industrial specs like a wider operating temperature range, on-board EMMC, etc. Also, the pair of PRU's make them useful for things where more precise timing is important.
                                                                                                                              • wiremine 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                > Sounds like a direct competitor to the Raspberry Pi.

                                                                                                                                I would consider the Black and Green to be competitors too.


                                                                                                                                Would be really interested to get a good analysis of the Raspberry Pi, BB Black, and this new board.

                                                                                                                                • lsllc 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                  Regarding the BBB/BBG, in the last 3-5 years the RPis have gotten significantly faster (RPi3 & 4) and gone 64-bit whereas the BBB & BBG haven't changed much (aside from a bit more eMMC and a very minor CPU bump) since they were launched. These days the 1GHZ 32-bit AM3358 (BBB RevC) is comparatively much slower and with only 512MB RAM, that's a lot less than a stock RPi 4.

                                                                                                                                  Having said that, the BBBs are a great device! They're rock solid and have far better I/O options than the RPi: 4 UARTS, multiple I2C, SPI & CAN buses, EHRPWM, a ton of GPIO, 2x PRU processors, LCD driver, both USB and USB Gadget, oh and of course, the onboard eMMC is great compared to booting from an SD.

                                                                                                                                  So I'm psyched about the Beagle-V.

                                                                                                                                • samstave 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                  >>*SiFive is strategically leveraging or responding to the geopolitics surrounding Chinese technology.*

                                                                                                                                  interesting subtext.

                                                                                                                                  We should all be debating HW WRT the fact that you can't name a single device (aside from weapons) that does not contain a single-non-chinese-manufactured component...

                                                                                                                                  every phone or machine is almost 100% chinese built.

                                                                                                                                  "designed by apple in cupertino california" (but made with slave labor from congo, china and other countries)

                                                                                                                                  And we already know about all the backdoors both China and the US do...

                                                                                                                                  FFS we have known about Eschelon since the 70s - the carnivor, room 641A, etc... etc....

                                                                                                                                  • sradman 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                    Indeed, the geopolitics works both ways. I think the Chinese are looking at RISC-V as a safe-guard against American embargoes of the kind that killed/maimed HiSilicon, the non-Chinese nation-states are looking for full transparency of silicon design, and the manufacturers want full access to a truly global market that includes China. I'm not sure that SiFive RISC-V designs can be competitive with ARM/x64 in the short-term but the geopolitics creates a potential niche.

                                                                                                                                    I think you are conflating assembly and manufacturing. TSMC is Taiwanese and Samsung is South Korean. Personally I'd prefer that all nation-states and their security organizations followed the Golden Rule and promoted free trade rather than protectionism.

                                                                                                                                    > made with slave labor from congo, china and other countries

                                                                                                                                    I don't equate low-wage manufacturing/assembly with exploitation and certainly not slavery but I understand that this is a common metaphor. Contemporary slavery [1] is a real thing and, until I see contrary evidence, I'm assuming it makes zero contribution to high-tech assembly or manufacturing.

                                                                                                                                    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Contemporary_slavery

                                                                                                                                    • monocasa 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                      The fact that the congo is listed means that they're including the literal chattel slavery that's common in the mineral extraction process there.
                                                                                                                                      • samstave 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                        You have my upvote, but not my agreement;

                                                                                                                                        We have min wage in the US, and even that is not equal across all states - we do not have UBI or universal health care, we have shitty industries, such as insurance (forced hedge funds) and in general, we have brainwashing people to accept it as normal.

                                                                                                                                        fuck that.

                                                                                                                                        YC even wants you to think that all VC is all-truistic NOPE.

                                                                                                                                  • Narishma 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                    There's something wrong with that page in Firefox. It pegs a whole CPU core and eats tons of memory.
                                                                                                                                  • jstgord 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                    Does anyone have informed opinion about the usability / value / relevance / quality of the Neural network support on this chip ?

                                                                                                                                    Their page mentions spec with :

                                                                                                                                        • SiFive U74 RISC-V Dual core with 2MB L2 cache @ 1.5GHz
                                                                                                                                        • Vision DSP Tensilica-VP6 for computing vision
                                                                                                                                        • NVDLA Engine (configuration 2048 MACs@800MHz )
                                                                                                                                        • Neural Network Engine (1024MACs@500MHz)
                                                                                                                                    So this board seems to have some great support for neural net / robotics processing ?

                                                                                                                                    I have just noticed the recent trend of neural hardware support on mainstream chips... Apples M1, this chip.

                                                                                                                                    Wondering what the implications are for software and user-space .. what kind of devices / apps will this enable ?

                                                                                                                                    One area Im interested in is turning lidar scanner point data into 3D geometry on the device, thus solving a big data management issue.

                                                                                                                                    • UncleOxidant 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                      I suspect an NVIDIA Jetson would be a better choice for this kind of application.
                                                                                                                                      • panny 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                        If it has driver/firmware blobs, I'll say no thanks and stick to my ARM Rockchips. If they deliver this on linux with full source code, I will definitely buy their boards.
                                                                                                                                        • CameronNemo 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                          New Rockchip boards are coming with neural processing units.
                                                                                                                                      • filleokus 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                        What kind of performance is expected from this compared to say the RPi 4B? Any noteworthy changes in performance characteristics (e.g better/worse I/O or something)?
                                                                                                                                        • rwmj 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                          Highly unlikely to be very competitive. At this stage it's about getting RISC-V hardware into developers' hands, and previous boards either cost $1000 or were limited in ways where they could not run Linux well. (I am one of the Fedora/RISC-V maintainers.)
                                                                                                                                          • deepGem 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                            Just saw this SiFive board HiFive is retailing for $679, can you please comment if this is any good for toying around ? Specs look more than decent - almost desktop class computing.


                                                                                                                                            • rwmj 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                              I have a couple on order, and I've talked to one of the developers. It looks nice - PCIe, NVRAM SSDs, mini ITX format, 16GB RAM, more cores, etc - but not in the same price point or market segment as an SBC. We will likely buy a pile of them to do Fedora builds.
                                                                                                                                              • eclipseo76 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                > We will likely buy a pile of them to do Fedora builds.

                                                                                                                                                Do you expect a lot of things to break on RISCV?

                                                                                                                                              • giantrobot 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                Why would you want use these as build machines? It seems more efficient to just cross-compile on your fastest build machines. You get much faster CI feedback that way. Obviously you want to validate RISC-V code on native devices but using them as builders seems wasteful.

                                                                                                                                                I'm genuinely curious why that's desirable. Maybe I just misunderstand your comment and you want the RISC-V boards for validation i.e. make sure you can self-host the distro even if in general releases are cross-compiled on your (I assume AMD64) build fleet.

                                                                                                                                                • FullyFunctional 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                  I'm sure the Fedora builds aren't designed for cross compilation (which is far from trivial for most packages not designed for it). Also, man-power is the most precious resource so it would be a waste to spend time trying to cross-compile what could be built natively.
                                                                                                                                                  • giantrobot 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                    As long as you've got the target toolchain on the host, the code has no idea it's being cross compiled. If you've got the tooling set up it's a lot of setting of envars. It's not trivial but it's also not super difficult. A compiler running native on an architecture doesn't produce any different output than the same compiler doing a cross compilation.

                                                                                                                                                    Even if you wanted to run a native RISC-V build process, running it in QEMU on a much more powerful AMD64 system will get you the same results in a fraction of the time. This gets much faster feedback in the CI system.

                                                                                                                                                    • brucehoult 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                      The older HiFive Unleashed (1.5 GHz single-issue) builds things considerably faster on a per-core basis than qemu-system on current amd64 (or at least did in the Skylake generation). The dual-issue cores in the HiFive Unmatched should be around 50% faster.

                                                                                                                                                      amd64 machines do have the advantage that you can get them with 32 or 64 cores and hundreds of GB of RAM -- at a price, especially in power consumption.

                                                                                                                                                      The three year old HiFive Unleashed uses around 5W to 6W at the wall when building flat out, considerably less than the maybe 25W a quad core i7 or Ryzen will use, with lower performance running qemu-system.

                                                                                                                                                      The new HiFive Unmatched probably has the same or lower power consumption, at 50% higher performance.

                                                                                                                                                      Running qemu on a Pi 4 would use about the same power as the RISC-V chip but be waaaaaaay slower.

                                                                                                                                                      • giantrobot 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                        That's running qemu which is unnecessary for cross compiling. I'm not seeing any advantage to building on native silicon rather than cross compiling on existing machines AMD64 machines. Even with the power usage of the AMD64 chips being higher, the faster compilation speed will likely net less overall energy used for the builds.

                                                                                                                                                        I fully understand wanting native silicon to do development on and to work on some architecture specific branch. It's easy to just recompile your working copy locally. The original poster was talking about "build machines". I'm not seeing the utility as "build machines", especially if they have far less power than AMD64 machines.

                                                                                                                                                        • brucehoult 112 days ago
                                                                                                                                                          There are many packages that compile some kind of tools and then run them to produce other things necessary for the build, possibly several layers deep.

                                                                                                                                                          In theory you can set up the build system to correctly know which things should be compiled native and which should be cross-compiled. Sometimes you even need native and cross-compiled versions of the same thing.

                                                                                                                                                          In practice, this is a capability that few people use and even if everything is set up correctly at some point most people contributing patches do not think about or test maintaining the ability to cross compile and it gets broken.

                                                                                                                                                          When you're building hundreds or thousands of packages for a distro such as Debian or Fedora this is a huge problem.

                                                                                                                                                          Building natively in a full system emulator or on real hardware is the only way, in practice.

                                                                                                                                                      • FullyFunctional 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                        Only for very simple systems. Many are complicated which produce artifacts that are executed to produce other artifacts (which are also compiled). As arbitrary binaries are executed during the build, and the correctness may depend on native execution, this is far from as trivial as you might think. Have you ever compiled Emacs (at least in its 18 version)?

                                                                                                                                                        Building under QEMU is obvious, however the native hardware is actually faster.

                                                                                                                                                      • neop1x 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                        A Docker image with cross-compilation toolchain?
                                                                                                                                                      • biocrusoe 112 days ago
                                                                                                                                                        Other commenters have pointed out how tricky cross compiling can be. Debian has been making a lot of progress here, most thanks to Helmut Grohne it seems. http://crossqa.debian.net/ https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBootstrap (slightly out of date, but still useful)
                                                                                                                                                    • anderspitman 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                      Looks like you can get it from Mouser for $665 as well:


                                                                                                                                                      Found that link from this SiFive page:


                                                                                                                                                      • caeril 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                        This looks great, thanks!
                                                                                                                                                    • tyingq 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                      The Rpi4B has a Quad-core Cortex-A72 (ARM v8) 64-bit SoC @ 1.5 GHz with 1MB L2 cache. The A72 claims 4.7 DMIPS/MHz.

                                                                                                                                                      This board has a Dual-core U74 (RV64GC) 64-bit SoC @ 1.5 GHz with 2MB L2 cache. The U74 claims 2.5 DMIPS/MHz.

                                                                                                                                                      So, roughly 1/4 as fast as a RPIi 4B given the roughly half DMIPS/MHz and half the cores?

                                                                                                                                                      That, of course, is a really rough guess, ignoring lots of potential variables.

                                                                                                                                                      • brucehoult 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                        The CPU cores are comparable to the ARM A55, rather than the A72.

                                                                                                                                                        It's more MHz and a better uarch than the cores in a Pi 3, so should outperform even the newer Pi 3+ on tasks that don't use NEON and don't use more than 2 cores.

                                                                                                                                                        • jgjot-singh 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                          Would this have any sort of meaningful impact on sound/music related processing? E.g I am thinking of vst applications running inside DAWs
                                                                                                                                                          • asd4 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                            On the list of features: "Dedicated Audio Processing DSP and sub-system".

                                                                                                                                                            The hardware might be there to do some good audio processing, but how it integrates with the OS is something I'm not experienced with.

                                                                                                                                                    • pedrocr 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                      > All GPIOs can be configured to different functions including but not limited to SDIO, Audio, SPI, I2C, UART and PWM

                                                                                                                                                      Does supporting audio mean that these GPIOs can be used as analog-to-digital converters? There are home automation applications where reading a voltage in an ethernet connected device is a good fit but from what I've seen in a raspberry that requires extra hardware connected to the IO ports.

                                                                                                                                                      • qchris 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                        As an aside, I really wish that these boards would include more than two PWM outputs. The Raspberry Pi has two as well, and it feels really limiting. Analog control instead gets farmed out to microcontrollers, when you could probably make it work with a single board if there were more pins to work with.
                                                                                                                                                        • Teknoman117 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                          I used to love the beaglebone for that. Run application logic on the main arm core, farm the microcontroller stuff out to the embedded PRU microcontrollers (which could access all the IO functions). Still a single board solution.
                                                                                                                                                          • qchris 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                            I agree-as far as I know, the BBB had something like 8 PWM channels. I'm not saying you need all of them, but at least 4 seems somewhat reasonable.
                                                                                                                                                          • Youden 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                            I'm curious, what do you do with so many PWM outputs?

                                                                                                                                                            I just play with electronics for side projects but stick to digital for everything, so I'm wondering what I'm missing out on.

                                                                                                                                                            • qchris 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                              Honestly, I'm still mostly getting started in the area as well, but I'm looking to use them for motor control. An example of this would be this paper [1], which I'm hoping to replicate to some degree, but requires at least 4 PWM outputs. I'm currently planning on using an Odroid-C4, which has 6 PWM outputs.

                                                                                                                                                              But the work I've needed to put into that in order to get a motor controller working was way more than I needed than for a RPi4b, since libraries for it already exist for the Pi vs needing to re-write them for the Odroid board. It would have been cool to try it with an open-hardware board as well. But it's not just quadcopters--a lot of other projects like rovers or position control with multiple stepper on different axes benefit from extra PWM, and doing it in software can lead to too much jitter, so the hardware timers are necessary.

                                                                                                                                                              [1] https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:946992/FULLTEXT0...

                                                                                                                                                          • monocasa 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                            It probably means I2S.
                                                                                                                                                            • pedrocr 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                              Makes sense. Just another digital bus. Bummer.


                                                                                                                                                              • monocasa 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                Eh, a decent audio DAC pretty much requires another chip since it takes up a ton of die space, so you'd be an absolute fool to use the same process node as your logic. Since this looks to be beagleboard compatible, you should be able to use an audio cape like this https://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-67906/l/beagleb...

                                                                                                                                                                If you don't care about it being decent, you can just use the PWM channels like the RPi does.

                                                                                                                                                                • pedrocr 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                  I don't really want audio. What I'm looking for is to read 3.3V or 5V analog levels, with really low frequency, once a second or less would be fine.
                                                                                                                                                                  • jononor 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                    Many cheap and easy to interface I2C and SPI chips for that, which is the way the industry is going generally. Or throw in a tiny Arduino with stock Firmata firmware, and use that as an I/O extender.
                                                                                                                                                                    • pedrocr 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                      That's the extra hardware I mentioned. I guess I wish the RPi just included one of those chips and had say 4 to 8 pins for ADC. It would make things simpler versus having to find something already well integrated or building it.
                                                                                                                                                                  • monocasa 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                    In that case you can probably hook up the GPIOs to a resistor ladder if you know the shape of the analog signal you're trying to sample.
                                                                                                                                                          • WatchDog 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                            Is the SiFive U74 open source?

                                                                                                                                                            I know the RISC-V ISA is, but I thought the SiFive designs were proprietary.

                                                                                                                                                            • zozbot234 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                              Looks like their Hard IP is proprietary but based on open high-level designs such as Rocket and BOOM. The peripherals situation is mixed, but they've stated in the past that they're quite OK with using open designs whenever feasible.
                                                                                                                                                              • my123 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                The high-level design is proprietary too.

                                                                                                                                                                As I said elsewhere, SiFive CPUs are just as closed as Arm ones, you just pay a royalty to SiFive instead of Arm.

                                                                                                                                                                • zozbot234 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                  > The high-level design is proprietary too.

                                                                                                                                                                  They have source code files for their 'Freedom' core designs up on GitHub under an Apache 2.x license. These can be directly used to evaluate their designs as FPGA soft-cores.

                                                                                                                                                                  • my123 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                    The SoC, with the Rocket core used. This is very different from SiFive's own U series cores, which are proprietary.
                                                                                                                                                                    • zozbot234 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                      SiFive has E-series (aka "Freedom Everywhere") and U-series (aka "Freedom Unleashed") cores, both of which seem to be based on Rocket. And they do provide high-level designs for both on their GitHub, under a free license.
                                                                                                                                                                      • my123 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                        High-level designs of the SoC, not of those cores themselves is public for some platforms.

                                                                                                                                                                        Based on whatever for the core doesn't matter, as the cores themselves in any case diverge quite a lot from Rocket.

                                                                                                                                                                  • dkjaudyeqooe 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                    This is not correct. Anyone can design and build a RISC-V CPU without ever getting permission from anyone.

                                                                                                                                                                    Anything that uses the ARM ISA on the other hand requires a (costly) licence from ARM.

                                                                                                                                                                    SiFive has its own proprietary *implementation" buty that's not required, and there are many free open source implementations.

                                                                                                                                                                    • my123 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                      I wrote SiFive CPUs, not RISC-V there. (because this BeagleV board uses SiFive)

                                                                                                                                                                      There's a _huge_ gap between academic implementations and ones that are actually worth shipping. I can see RISC-V winning quite handily for microcontrollers. But on anything bigger than that...

                                                                                                                                                                      • brucehoult 111 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                        Western Digital's open sourced SweRV cores are approximately the same performance as the closed-source SiFive 7-series ones.

                                                                                                                                                                        The main difference is the WD cores are 32 bit, no MMU, probably DTIM rather than cache (not sure).

                                                                                                                                                                        The guts of the dual issue decode, register file, pipeline is there, which is the hard part. The other bits could be relatively easily added by the open source community, probably cribbing components from RocketChip.

                                                                                                                                                                        • dkjaudyeqooe 112 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                          People said that about open source compilers. Where are we now?

                                                                                                                                                                          You need to give it a few years before you write it off. It's significant that most CS/EE students are now learning the RISC-V architecture.

                                                                                                                                                                      • sitkack 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                        They aren't for the customers of SiFive. What is your greater point with this comment? That SiFive isn't Open Source or that they are equivalent to Arm?

                                                                                                                                                                        This video from SiFive clearly explains the RISC-V ecosystem and how SiFive is involved.


                                                                                                                                                                        • my123 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                          Arm provides Verilog source code of their CPU cores for their customers. It's an industry standard practice.
                                                                                                                                                                          • sitkack 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                            You haven't said anything about SiFive.
                                                                                                                                                                    • gjsman-1000 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                      Open source refers solely to the software side of things in these groups and types of projects. Thus, all of the drivers and software you need to use the SiFive is open source and thus you can say it is an open source design. However, it is not an "open hardware" design in that the IP used to design the chip is not released.
                                                                                                                                                                      • coder543 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                        > However, it is not an "open hardware" design in that the IP used to design the chip is not released.

                                                                                                                                                                        The marketing page for the BeagleV specifically says "Open Hardware Design", but I agree that they probably didn't mean Open Hardware beyond just the PCB layout or something similar.

                                                                                                                                                                        It would be very surprising if they released the detailed schematics for the SiFive cores. Until there's some kind of common micro-fab standard where every major university can have a legit semiconductor fab for small scale operations, giving people the design doesn't really do much.

                                                                                                                                                                        I really wish that someone would work on the problem of making affordable, small-scale semiconductor fabrication possible on a reasonably modern node (<= 32nm). It's a hard problem... but everyone in the world being dependent on a few large fabs is also a hard problem.

                                                                                                                                                                        • jdkticom 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                          Correct. This is open at the ISA, PCB and software level, not the chip RTL.

                                                                                                                                                                          Still, it is a step forward.

                                                                                                                                                                          For something more open at the RTL level, I'd look at Precuror (https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/precursor) right now.

                                                                                                                                                                          Speaking as someone at Beagle, we see this board as an important step to more openness in the ecosystem, especially helping software developers improve the state of open source for RISC-V. It is also just a really cool board. Beagle will do more to try to get more openness at the RTL-level moving forward, perhaps even with FPGA boards at an interim step. The shuttle services are starting to make releasing a new chip design in reasonably modern nodes more possible.

                                                                                                                                                                      • ipodopt 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                        Some of them are open source: https://github.com/sifive/freedom

                                                                                                                                                                        So this board has an open source CPU: https://www.sifive.com/boards/hifive1-rev-b

                                                                                                                                                                        This does not: https://www.sifive.com/boards/hifive-unmatched

                                                                                                                                                                        Although, I get the feeling they will open source design on a rolling basis. Pure speculation.

                                                                                                                                                                        • stragies 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                          The processor maybe, but what about the e.g. USB3 controller, WIFI, etc, that can also freely snoop around your memory. Are there even open USB3 implementations?
                                                                                                                                                                          • joana035 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                            > that can also freely snoop around your memory.

                                                                                                                                                                            Can them? Even with IOMMU?

                                                                                                                                                                            EDIT: I don't think so.

                                                                                                                                                                            • chem83 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                              Is there an IOMMU specification standardized on RISC-V yet? I think it's just some early proposals.

                                                                                                                                                                              Or proprietary designs that achieve similar functionality such as Hex Five and WorldGuard.

                                                                                                                                                                              Am I right?

                                                                                                                                                                        • scoopr 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                          Does it have an GPU? I can't quite decipher the specs.

                                                                                                                                                                          Random googling suggests that SiFive have partnered with PowerVR for GPU, which might even enable vulkan support, but I suppose this SoC is not one of those?

                                                                                                                                                                          • archanox 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                            As per the Ars link;

                                                                                                                                                                            > The initial pilot run of BeagleV will use the Vision DSP hardware as a graphics processor, allowing a full graphical desktop environment under Fedora. Following hardware runs will include an unspecified model of Imagine GPU as well.

                                                                                                                                                                            • pabs3 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                              Also, ImgTec are planning on writing and upstreaming open drivers for Linux and mesa for another RISC-V based board, so probably those drivers will work here too.


                                                                                                                                                                              • monocasa 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                I don't think that necessarily says that ImgTec will be upstreaming the open drivers, more that they don't have a better option at the moment and will be replacing closed source components with each revision.

                                                                                                                                                                                I hope they will, but I'll believe it when I see it. They've been extremely allergic to open source in the past.

                                                                                                                                                                                • pabs3 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                  The post specifically says upstreaming open drivers, here is a quote:

                                                                                                                                                                                  Imagination is also creating a new open-source GPU driver to provide a complete, up-streamed open-source kernel and user-mode driver stack to support Vulkan® and OpenGL® ES within the Mesa framework. It will be openly developed with intermediate milestones visible to the open-source community and a complete open-source Linux driver will be delivered by Q2 2022. Imagination will work with RIOS to run the open-source GPU driver on the PicoRio open-source platform.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I agree it seems like quite a change of heart and I definitely won't be holding my breath.

                                                                                                                                                                                  • monocasa 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    That'll be interesting to see how much is actually new. I'm pretty sure they licensed the core of their shader compiler stack, so there was no way it was going to just be opened up, but their GPU ukernel looks totally homegrown and would be a shame to throw away.
                                                                                                                                                                                  • stragies 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    They've been delivering that vacuous promise every few years. Being bought by Canyon Bridge, a private equity fund owned by the Chinese government, a few years ago has unfortunately not changed anything.
                                                                                                                                                                                    • monocasa 113 days ago

                                                                                                                                                                                      Having reverse engineered a bit of the drivers, I think it's because they culturally think that all of their value add is in the software. Patents have expired on the TBDR fixed function hardware blocks. The rest is just a combo of a little RISC core that does job dispatch (Programmable Data Sequencer in their parlance), and a cluster of SMT barrel scheduled cores (used to be called USSE in the SGX days, not sure now) that do the heavy lifting wrt shaders that don't really have any secret sauce AFAICT.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The value add is all in the software stack where they run a full little ukernel on the main GPU cores, and optimizing the shit out of the software that runs on those cores from their pretty clever compiler.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I bet they think that if they open source the drivers, that's giving away the one thing that makes PowerVR GPUs special in the first place.

                                                                                                                                                                                      If a IMG person reads this: y'all are wrong with that last piece. Your company is dying without opening the drivers, and you'll be able to control the hardware/software co-design in a way that nobody else can even if you give away the software. You'll have to keep doing work to have new hardware available and stay ahead of the curve, but that's true anyways and is the sign of a healthy business. Sure beats withering away as your patents expire.

                                                                                                                                                                                      • pabs3 112 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                        Was anything about that reverse engineering publicly released?
                                                                                                                                                                                  • Narishma 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    Anybody know what changed their mind? As I recall, they've always been pretty hostile to open source.
                                                                                                                                                                            • alkonaut 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                              Can someone explain the technical benefits of this architecture over the competition? That is should I be excited if I don't care about e.g. openness? Or is it simply an effort to create something that is a half-decent cpu alternative but open?

                                                                                                                                                                              Is there anything about RISC-V that is "better" simply because it is a later design than others? Is it likely to evolve faster because it is open or more modern?

                                                                                                                                                                              • ansible 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                > Is there anything about RISC-V that is "better" simply because it is a later design than others?

                                                                                                                                                                                A lot of it is because it is newer, and the designers have learned from previous architectures. It is a relatively clean and straightforward instruction set, designed to be easily and efficiently implemented.

                                                                                                                                                                                There's not anything that is super crazy revolutionary, in contrast to the (still vaporware) Mill CPU architecture.

                                                                                                                                                                                > Is it likely to evolve faster because it is open or more modern?

                                                                                                                                                                                They have a good extension mechanism that allows relatively clean additions to the instruction set. Some of the recent ones like the vector extension aren't finalized yet. Anyone can propose their own extension. Historically, ARM might work with their most important customers to implement an extension, but good luck getting their attention if you're not already paying them millions per year.

                                                                                                                                                                                • drewm1980 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                  The mill has been in development for... 18 ~years now! Soon they will be able to hire engineers who are actually younger than the company. I wonder if there has ever been a tech company that survived so long without bringing a product to market. Duke Nukem Forever took ~14 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                  • mhh__ 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    According to Ivan on their forums (so take this with a grain of salt as it's from the horses mouth rather than an external assessment) they were apparently supposed to be levelling-up in the summer of 2020.

                                                                                                                                                                                    They have at least secured a decent patent portfolio, particularly on the belt.

                                                                                                                                                                                    • ansible 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                      From what I understand, all the developers have day jobs or are independently wealthy and can afford to work on it without (much?) pay. They haven't accepted VC money, even though that would likely have sped up development considerably.
                                                                                                                                                                                      • CyberDildonics 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                        Their product is hardware patents.
                                                                                                                                                                                        • acehreli 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                          That's patently wrong. :) I worked for the Mill for a while The Mill is as real as it gets. EDIT: No, there is no actual CPU but the software, the compiler, the simulator, etc. exist.
                                                                                                                                                                                          • CyberDildonics 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                            Where does their income come from? When is the CPU going to be released?
                                                                                                                                                                                            • acehreli 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                              I haven't worked for them for a few years now but it's still a "sweat equity" organization as described on the web page under "About" at https://millcomputing.com/

                                                                                                                                                                                              They consider investments for their minimal costs as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                          • ansible 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                            I would be happy if they just released a instruction-level simulator to play around with.

                                                                                                                                                                                            It would also be super-nice if they released at least a Copper or Tin core (low-end) that can be synthesized to an FPGA for people to try out.

                                                                                                                                                                                      • tyingq 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                        I think in the real world "No percentage of each sale payments to ARM" is what will drive RISC-V. An "open" ISA doesn't force anything else to be open.

                                                                                                                                                                                        So, use cases like Western Digital, where they can quit paying ARM a percentage of every hard drive they sell, for example.

                                                                                                                                                                                        As for technical advantages, each RISCV vendor has their own choice of how to implement, so it's hard to say anything broad that applies to all RISCV implementations. The Berkeley BOOM project is hitting really good DMIPS/MHz numbers. LowRISC has some interesting memory tagging and "minion core" ideas, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Edit: I left out perhaps the most important reason RISCV has a lot of hype. They've been successful getting first class support from the Linux kernel maintainers.

                                                                                                                                                                                        • pjc50 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                          > quit paying ARM a percentage

                                                                                                                                                                                          The percentage is very small, though. So this argument only works for very high volume use cases, which is why the RISC-V eval boards are currently far more expensive than comparable ARMs.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Do WD do their own silicon yet, or do they just buy the parts?

                                                                                                                                                                                          • nickik 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                            WD has their own cores and they are OpenSource. Very nice designs. They also spend a lot of money on the open source ecosystem for chip development.


                                                                                                                                                                                            - https://www.westerndigital.com/company/innovations/risc-v

                                                                                                                                                                                            - https://chipsalliance.org/

                                                                                                                                                                                            - https://github.com/chipsalliance/Cores-SweRV

                                                                                                                                                                                            • reportingsjr 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                              How many ARM microcontrollers are low volume? Pretty much all of the examples I can think of are incredibly high volume. STM32, SAMD21/51, i.MX, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                              WD said they were finishing taping out their first production design about a year and a half ago, so I assume they have started shipping them at this point, but it's hard to find info.

                                                                                                                                                                                              • blihp 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hasn't WD been doing their own silicon (at least from a design standpoint, they still use someone else's fab) precisely because the 'small percentage' ARM charges matters for their margins? In a world where we have ESP-01 boards which retail for $2, even a couple of percent matters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                • Narishma 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                  They design them. I don't know if they make them or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                              • cbm-vic-20 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                The ISA is pretty nice, simple, and well documented. And since it's "open", people can create their own implementations. Like this guy, who is creating a RISC-V processor from scratch, without using an FPGA.


                                                                                                                                                                                                • jdkticom 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                  One of the other replies points to the RISC-V extensions feature. I think for someone who "doesn't care about openness" would at least benefit from that in the architecture. It means the same compiler can be used to bootstrap things and simple steps can be added to greatly optimize specific types of code, like AI stuff. This board really stands out in AI performance.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also, having things open means that the supply-chain can be more stable, with less chances of a single glitch in the system halting deliveries for any time. This is driving a lot of interest in RISC-V right now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • yiyus 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm quite excited about vector instructions. The approach used in RISC-V is very refreshing coming from SIMD. But I would not expect an instant impact from a user point of view.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • IshKebab 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Compared to ARM, nothing significant. They're very similar load-store architectures.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Here's a RISC-V quick reference: https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/1617/ECAD+Arch/files/docs/...

                                                                                                                                                                                                      And ARM: http://users.ece.utexas.edu/~valvano/Volume1/QuickReferenceC...

                                                                                                                                                                                                      The main difference is that RISC-V is a lot more modular, so it's going to be difficult to distribute binaries for but more flexible if you're doing something completely vertical. Also a lot of the modules have bundle relatively common/easy instructions with niche/difficult ones. E.g. multiply with divide.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • hajile 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The main difference is that RISC-V is a lot more modular, so it's going to be difficult to distribute binaries for but more flexible if you're doing something completely vertical. Also a lot of the modules have bundle relatively common/easy instructions with niche/difficult ones. E.g. multiply with divide.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't think it'll be worse than ARM and it's decidedly better than x86.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        There are SEVEN major revisions of ARMv8. Then there's v8-R, v8-M, and additional 32-bit variants of each instruction set in addition to both ARMv7 and ARMv6 which also still ship billions of chips per year. Oh, and under pressure from companies, ARM also allows custom instructions now. Those aren't just theoretical either -- Apple at least added a ton of custom matrix instructions to the M1.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        For x86, supporting only semi-recent processors (2006 Core or greater) leaves you still checking for support for: SSE3, SSE4, SSE4.1, SSE4a, SSE4.2, SSE5, AVX, AVX2, AVX512, XOP, AES, SHA, TBM, ABM, BMI1, BMI2, F16C, ADX, CLMUL, FMA3, FMA4, LWP, SMX, TSX, RdRand, MPX, SGX, SME, and TME. That's 29 instruction sets and not all of them have use on both Intel and AMD chips.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        RISC-V seems at least that cohesive. If you're shipping a general purpose CPU, you'll always have mul/div, compression, fusion (not actually instructions), privilege, single precision, double precision, bit manipulation, and probably a few others.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Where you'll run into mul/div missing or no floats are microcontrollers or "Larabee" style GPU cores. In all of those cases, you'll be coding to a very specific core, so that won't really matter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thankfully, we've had ways to specify and/or check these kinds of things for decades.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        • IshKebab 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                          > leaves you still checking for support for: SSE3, SSE4...

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Find me a processor that supports SSE4 but not SSE3. That's the problem. With x86 you pretty much can say "we're targeting processors made after 2010" or whatever and that's that. You make one binary and it works.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          RISC-V allows a combinatorial explosion of possible CPUs. You can have a CPU that supports extension X and not Y, but another one that supports Y and not X.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • brucehoult 112 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you're in an embedded situation where you're building all the software yourself then that's fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            If you're on a general purpose PC/smartphone with packaged software then the OS vendor specifies a base set of extensions that everything must implement -- for Linux at the moment that is RV64IMAFDC aka RV64GC.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            All of those extensions (except maybe A) are very generally useful and pervasive in code.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Some other extensions, such as the Vector extension, will provide significant benefits to applications that don't even know whether the system they are running on has them -- you'll just get dynamically linked to a library version that uses V or doesn't, as appropriate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            To take a very trivial example, on a system with V, every application will automatically use highly efficient (and also very short) V versions of memcpy, memcmp, memset, bzero, strlen, strcpy, strcmp and similar.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            The same will apply to libraries for bignums, BLAS, jpeg and other media types, and many others.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • brucehoult 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Do you have a reason to think the matrix instructions in the M1 are not those specified in Armv8.6-A?
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • brucehoult 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                          If you're doing something embedded nothing prevents you implementing multiply but not divide. RISC-V gcc has an option to use an instruction for multiply but runtime library call for divide.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          In fact, even if you claim to implement the M extension (both multiply and divide) all that is necessary is that programs using those opcode work -- but that can be via trap and emulate. If your overall system can run binaries with multiply and divide instructions in them then you can claim M-extension. Whether the performance is adequate is between you and your customers. Note that there are also vast differences in performance between different hardware implementations of multiply and divide, with 32-64 cycle latencies not unheard of.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          The same applies for implementing a subset of other extensions in hardware. You can implement the uncommon ones in the trap handler if that will meet your customer's performance needs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • IshKebab 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yeah if you're willing to do something completely non-standard of course you can do whatever you want.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Note that there are also vast differences in performance between different hardware implementations of multiply and divide, with 32-64 cycle latencies not unheard of.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes that is exactly the problem.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            • brucehoult 112 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                              This problem exists even among different CPUs that all implement the M extension in hardware -- or different CPUs in ISAs where multiply and divide are not optional, such as x86 or aarch64.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              The worst (but conforming) hardware implementations are barely better than the best software emulations -- and maybe worse if the software emulation is running on a wide OoO CPU.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • cmrdporcupine 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Interesting, I might get myself one of these to play with.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        But the board has an HDMI output, however the description doesn't describe the specifications on display processor / GPU functionality, or even if it's just a simple framebuffer, etc. There's specifications on Video processing, but I get the impression this is for camera / video input, not output.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • farseer 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Can't find any cost information
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • bahorn 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                          The google form lists the prices in an image:

                                                                                                                                                                                                          * $119 for 4GB of RAM

                                                                                                                                                                                                          * $149 for 8GB of RAM

                                                                                                                                                                                                          But the early version apparently is only the 8GB variant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • michielr 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                            I just got an email from Seeed Studio

                                                                                                                                                                                                            > BeagleV™ is the first affordable RISC-V board designed to run Linux. Based on the RISC-V architecture, BeagleV™ pushes open-source to the next level and gives developers more freedom and power to innovate and design industry-leading solutions with an affordable introductory price at $149.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • pantalaimon 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                            What does affordable mean in that context? There is no price on the website.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            edit: CNX Software has some more info [0] - it's $119, still a far cry from a Raspberry Pi or Orange Pi

                                                                                                                                                                                                            [0] https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/01/13/beaglev-powerful-ope...

                                                                                                                                                                                                            • messe 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                              $149 for 8GB of RAM on a RISC-V board is very affordable compared to the previous options.
                                                                                                                                                                                                              • StreamBright 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                For that price you can get a decent SOC with ARM64 too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                • patrec 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That's not the point. Risc-V machines are not yet price competitive, but presumably will be at some point. This is for people who are interested enough in Risc-V to spend some time and a ~$100 on it, but not thousands of of dollars. And the main reason many people are interested in Risc-V over Arm is that it's open and license free.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • pjc50 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You pay more to have something Free. Software people have yet to realise this reality of the hardware market.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                • brucehoult 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Raspberry Pi 4 with 8 GB RAM is $75, and that's not counting a power supply, SD card, or HDMI cable. Adding those at pishop.us (16 GB card) takes the price to $95.85.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We don't know whether the BeagleV price includes those necessary items or not but either way coming within a factor of 2 of Raspberry Pi price is pretty impressive at this stage. Up until now you've paid $3000 for a 1.5 GHz RISC-V setup with HDMI and USB etc, if you've got one actually in your hands (HiFive Unleashed plus MicroSemi HiFive Expansion board), or $665 for one that will start delivery in March (HiFive Unmatched). There is also the $499 Icicle which is quad core but only single-issue (like the HiFive Unleashed) and only 600 MHz.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Prices are plummeting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                • karakanb 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The website is super slow. It downloads 7.66MB of files, and it took 1.05min to load for me on a 2020 MBP with 150Mbps bandwidth and ~15ms latency.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • zwirbl 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    From the Guidelines: Please don't complain about website formatting, back-button breakage, and similar annoyances. They're too common to be interesting. Exception: when the author is present. Then friendly feedback might be helpful.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Still, the page loads in ~3secs on my 2012 i7-3770K with 100Mbps...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • stragies 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The page is horrific though. 2 meters of scrolling for 7 sentences and 3 pics.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • trollied 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Welcome to the modern web :(
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • qalmakka 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There's something wrong at your end, 1 minute to download 7.66 MBs is abysmally slow for a > 100 Mbps connection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • brucehoult 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I didn't measure the size, but it loaded in 4 seconds here in Chrome on Ubuntu, via VDSL.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • pizzazzaro 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Noscript + ublock origin fixed that for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • wheybags 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This looks really awesome. It's been a longstanding desire of mine to build a custom laptop with one of these powerful small SOCs (originally thought of something like the lattepanda, which is similar to an Intel macbook air, but as a slightly bigger tan pi soc).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Would be super awesome to do it with riscv

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • throwmemoney 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If the form factor is reduced to something like an NSLU2 you can attach a large spinning disk and have a desktop server/NAS device. i.e., an unlocked WD MY Cloud with open source community android and iphone app for the device
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • spurdoman77 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Why the linux boards are always designed to be cheap? What about those who have little more dough and are willing to put some cash to get extra? Just create some expensiver premium models, not only cheap stuff, damn it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • Teknoman117 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              A few suggestions there:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              - hardkernel boards

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              - Nvidia Jetson AGX Xavier (8 core + 512 CUDA core volta GPU, PCIe 4.0)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              - Honeycomb LX2 (16 core, quad SFP+ (for 10G optics), PCIe 4.0)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I purchased an AGX Xavier for doing some self driving robot projects.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • yiyus 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Because, obviously, everyone wants to be the RISC raspberry. Becoming the expensive-alternative-to-raspberry-nobody-knows-about is not so attractive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Moreover, it looks to me like these cheap boards are not lacking features. What would you want in a premium version that is not present in the current models?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • jandrese 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Because the expensive stuff doesn't sell.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  At the end of the day most of these are just toys and it's hard to justify spending $850 on a device that is less capable than a $500 mini form factor OEM box if you're doing something serious.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • ansible 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    HiFive Unmatched has up to 16GB of RAM:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    But it is a little pricey.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • HoverSausage 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Where are these manufactured?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • ARandomerDude 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The type of questions in the application questionnaire ("Click to Apply") is encouraging -- it makes me think they anticipate some real professional interest in this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • akmittal 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Most RISC-V processors use really old node sizes. Even Raspberry Pi is on 28nm.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      To be more efficient and complete with mainstream processors a move to 10/12nm is required.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • rwmj 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I think everyone is well aware of that, but unless you're making and able to sell millions of boards and have hundreds of millions in cash flow, there's no real path to using 10nm or smaller nodes. FWIW AllWinner are currently manufacturing 5 million RISC-V chips (with TSMC IIRC). I don't know what node they are using.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • CameronNemo 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I guess if you can spring for smaller node sizes, you can spring for ARM licensing too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • arnaudsm 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Awesome project! But please compress your images, it took me 2 minutes to load your website.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Convert everything to <300kb progressive jpg and use svg for graphics.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • chiffre01 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is there a list of RISC-V CPUs in production someplace?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • miohtama 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Is video hardware also open source like RISC V CPU?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • justicezyx 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I do not really use such devices.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Can someone let me know, is there other use cases of such devices than prototyping/hobby?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • throwawayffffas 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Does anybody know if there is SBC with a large RISC-V cpu (8, 16 or more cores)?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • alexhutcheson 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              What’s the relationship between this project and BeagleBoard.org?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • joshlk 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                What features makes it “designed for Linux”?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • nickwanninger 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Likely that it supports the Supervisor execution environment from the riscv spec [1]. This means it can run the typical ring 0 and ring 3 for kernelspace and userspace respectively, and importantly the board supports virtual memory.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  [1] https://riscv.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/riscv-privilege...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • vhodges 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Most risc-v cores to date have been more on the micro-controller side of things (ie without an MMU). The cpu on this board has one so it can run Linux.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • fctorial 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Where's the source code?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • my123 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      SiFive CPUs are just as closed as Arm ones, you just pay a royalty to SiFive instead of Arm.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Only the ISA itself is open, (fast) implementations are not. (for any commercial-grade one instead of academic projects)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • rwmj 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't think it's open source. RISC-V is an open ISA, but implementations are not required to be open source (although there are many implementations which are).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • Pet_Ant 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I like to think of it as an open-standard like where anyone can download the TCK versus something where you need to pay for the SPECs from ISO (for example Prolog is https://www.iso.org/standard/21413.html which is 185€/$250 USD).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • coder543 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The marketing page indicates that the product isn't finished yet.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Presumably, they will release schematics and such when the device enters manufacturing, if they follow through on actually being Open Hardware.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As others mention, the processor core designs probably won't be open.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • bullen 113 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm missing OpenGL!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • ashleysmithgpu 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Open source" with nvidia hardware? Good luck with that
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • mikece 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Which will be generally available first: the BeagleV or the Raspberry Pi 5?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • fctorial 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            How is RISC-V better than x64? Aren't both of them just ISAs? The only pro I can find is that RISC V is cleaner (less legacy). But no one programs in assembly these days so why is this an issue?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • rwmj 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It's more about the licensing of the ISA. Try creating your own compatible x86 processors, and find out how long it takes before Intel's attack lawyers come down on you. ARM is a bit better but you still have to pay licensing fees. For people who want to git clone a design and manufacture it without involving lawyers or licensing fees, RISC-V is likely the best choice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • Pet_Ant 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Think of it as MP3 vs Ogg Vorbis. It's equivalent, slightly newer and a bit nicer, but really the benefit is that it's patent-unencumbered and you are free to tinker with the ISA and build your own versions at will.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • loudmax 114 days ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Not many people program in assembly, but teams working on compilers like gcc and LLVM very much do care about the ISA.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Apple has been able to make great progress moving from Intel x86 to their own custom ARM M1 processor. The way I understand it, RISC-V may allow similar advances.