15 comments

  • camillomiller 112 days ago
    Here's a tale of how you don't run a mobility startup, unless you don't care about the safety of your customers and your public image.

    Berlin car sharing startup Miles is demanding thousands of Euros from customers whose car was stolen, claiming that damages caused by thieves while driving the vehicles should be covered by their users.

    Turns out, Miles has always been leasing their entire car fleet, while renting it through a white-label platform they had no control over at least until recently. As a result, they failed to implement basic industry-standard safety mechanism, such as an immobilizer, that all of their competitors have been using for years. This, despite their telematics providers all offer the immobilizer as a feature.

    In one case they're threatening to sue a customer for 13,000€, during a pandemic. The customer is a bar owner, and faces bankruptcy as a result. In that specific case, Miles Mobility admitted that the car could be opened and turned on hours after the user had ended the rent.

    Edit, to add some elements:

    - don't miss the part about how customer support suggested not to call the police. Twice.

    - it's totally unclear how they are not covered by their insurance, and how can their investors be fine with all this (lead investor is Lukasz Gadowski of Delivery Hero fame, and TeamEurope Ventures founder).

    • javajosh 112 days ago
      And if they go through with the lawsuit, win or lose, the man will be out thousands of euros in attorney fees, plus months of stress.
      • rad_gruchalski 112 days ago
        But in Germany you don’t pay to the lawyers until you settle or lose in court.
        • kugelblitz 112 days ago
          Not necessarily, under certain conditions, the lawyers can get an advance on the money.
          • ant6n 112 days ago
            The months of stress are worse than the lawyer fees.
        • tgsovlerkhgsel 112 days ago
          The good news is that unlike in many other financial service disasters (e.g. with financial services), he isn't actually out the money, nor blocked from something particularly critical (I'm sure there are other carsharing services he can use).

          So he can at least ignore them until they actually sue.

          • markdown 112 days ago
            > Here's a tale of how you don't run a mobility startup

            You forgot the very first lesson: pick a usable, recognisable name. "Miles" for a business like this is a terrible choice.

            • javajosh 112 days ago
              Their first name was worse: "Drive By".
              • Barrin92 112 days ago
                Given that it's a German company I'm going to guess it was supposed to be an unlucky mixture of German and English given that drive by, in German "vorbeifahren" just has the literal meaning of "passing by".
              • shwoopdiwoop 112 days ago
                Since they are based in Berlin I guess it’s not much of a problem?
                • ThePadawan 112 days ago
                  Also highly ironic, seeing as Uber just* means "above".

                  * leaving aside the fact that the english usage of the term changed meaning, away from being a literal translation

                  • cafard 111 days ago
                    Yes, in German, with an umlaut--but maybe they didn't want to be mixed up with a metal band.

                    It has a couple of meanings in Latin, one of which coincides with Kalanick's expressed interests.

            • virtualritz 112 days ago
              I had an accident with a vehicle from one of these car sharing companies in Berlin. The company demanded 11,000€. I think that was 2017 or 2018.

              Supposedly I broke my contract by not following protocol after the accident and therefore my insurance was nil.

              Suffice to say I did. I had four witnesses, date & time & incident number of the police report, yadayadayada.

              I got a lawyer[1]. The whole thing went nowhere. I.e. I didn't pay, except for the lawyer who wrote exactly one letter to them.

              But I was blocked to use their vehicles until that company and another joined into a new enterprise. Upon which my record was magically wiped clean – I could use the part of the new fleet belonging to the vendor whose car I had had the accident with again.

              Ah, the merits of database mergers ...

              The issue all these car sharing companies have is their insurance.

              When these businesses started they needed insurance. What happened was that all the car insurance companies declined. Because how do you calculate the insurance if the driver changes all the time?

              So what these companies did was open their own insurance companies. While these are separate business entities it boils down to any damages coming out of their pockets. They have a vested interest in finding you in breach of their TOS so you are not covered by (their) insurance any more.

              How do I know? The lawyer I got was an expert in those cases. I was not the first of his clients with this issue. I can suggest him to anyone in Berlin who runs into such an issue.

              [1] https://www.ra-samimi.de/

              P.S.: A Canadian friend of mine had exactly the same happen to them there. Accident with car2go. Car2go purports breach of contract and demands full damages. He gets a lawyer. The thing goes nowhere. But he is since blocked from using car2go. Go figure.

              • tiltrus 112 days ago
                I had a similar problem with a car rental agency 2 years back in Netherlands. A small scratch and they were coming after me with 2k euros in damages. I had their CDW, but they refused to acknowledge it stating some TOS nonsense. Took me several months of constantly calling their office (they never reply to emails) to settle for a tenth of the cost. Took me another month to get a the receipt and written confirmation that the case is now closed & settled.

                The lesson I learned here is to use my Credit Cards CDW and deny the rentals insurance always.

                Tbh, I feel that most car rental agencies make their profits through these crazy insurance schemes.

              • lrossi 112 days ago
                I had a similar problem with a rented bike. Once I reached the destination station I tried to hook it into the parking thingy, but it didn’t lock. Luckily I noticed.

                However, the bike computer didn’t think it was rented anymore, so it didn’t let me attempt to lock it again.

                I had to spend half an hour on the phone with their support, until they redirected me to somebody who could login to the parking thingy remotely and manually control it.

                Cherry on top: I found out later that their tech support phone number is taxed. The call cost me something like 5x the ride cost.

                That’s when I decided to buy a bike and be done with these crappy services.

                • mkl95 112 days ago
                  That headline sums up the European startup scene (I say this having worked for a shady German startup myself, that has owed me and other former employees money for ages)
                  • dsnr 112 days ago
                    German companies have a reputation for not giving a shit about customers and customer support is virtually non-existent. For example you are quite often required to cancel your online subscriptions by letters sent by post 1-3 months in advance.
                    • Traster 112 days ago
                      This has been my experience in the Uk of any food delivery/taxi service. Hey! We'll be there in 10 minutes time!

                      ... 10 minutes later...

                      10 minutes time!

                      ... 50 minutes later...

                      10 minutes time!

                      ...10 minutes later...

                      Pavel has declined your order/ride, looking for a new rider/driver/CEO.

                      <contact support> Hey! Fuck off in this endless menu!

                      If innovation is crap customer service, these guys are the most innovative companies in the world.

                      • Slikey 112 days ago
                        3 months in advance is the legal limit, it's great. We also love our contract bindings for 2 years. Cunsumer friendliness here is heresy.
                        • snicksnak 112 days ago
                          It's so bad, there are even companies that handle cancelations by mail for you. You enter your contract details on their website, they print it and send it by registered mail.
                          • cscurmudgeon 112 days ago
                            What if you have to cancel this cancellation service?
                          • dsnr 112 days ago
                            And god forbid you miss the cancellation deadline, you’re stuck with another year.
                            • manfredo 112 days ago
                              Why don't people just stop payment? I remember when an insurance company tried to not let me cancel. I copied some boilerplate termination letter from the internet, and blocked payments from my card. They cancelled very quickly. Then again this is in the USA, so Germany may work differently.
                              • pell 112 days ago
                                In Germany if you have a contract which binds you for a certain amount of time, blocking the payment will just result in letters, extra fees and eventually collection agencies and a state bailiff. This will not just put a stain on your credit score but might also get you into legal trouble.
                                • dsnr 112 days ago
                                  There are multiple reasons. You often don’t subscribe by credit card but by bank account (you authorize them to pull money from your account). This means you cannot cancel, only the company can cancel. If you want to cancel you must hire a 150€/h lawyer to take them to court and fight a lengthy lawsuit that you will lose. If you did subscribe by credit card and block it, they will hunt you down to the last cent. They have the lawyers and debt collectors while you don’t.
                                  • hocuspocus 112 days ago
                                    > You often don’t subscribe by credit card but by bank account (you authorize them to pull money from your account)

                                    It's a good thing actually, reverting a SEPA debit takes two clicks. But indeed, cancelling payments is definitely not a way to get out of a contract.

                                  • distances 112 days ago
                                    Your debts do not go away by ignoring them, surely not even in the US? You'll end up in court eventually for non-payment.
                                    • manfredo 112 days ago
                                      Sure, debt doesn't just go away. But there's no loan, so why are you talking about debt? The grandparent comment is talking about online subscriptions. If you stop paying your your subscription, then they'll terminate service. Likewise if you stop paying your insurance premium you won't be able to file any claims. But unpaid subscriptions don't magically become debt.

                                      If you don't pay your electricity or water bill then that's a different story because utilities are not allowed to just stop service for things people's lives depend on. But utilities are more heavily regulated than normal subscriptions. For the most part, if a company tries to keep you from terminating a subscription and you say, "well, I'm not paying anymore. Do you still want to keep providing the service for free?" it's an effective way to get them to terminate service.

                                      • hocuspocus 112 days ago
                                        > But unpaid subscriptions don't magically become debt.

                                        There are things called debt collection agencies. They are widely used by service providers.

                                        • manfredo 112 days ago
                                          So if you block your Netflix payments you really think there going to send debt collectors? No, they'd lose more money on hiring a collector than they'd gain back from recovering one month's subscription.
                                          • mrep 112 days ago
                                            They probably could and I'm assuming they would just sell it to a collections agency for pennies on the dollar and the collections agency would just send an automated notice hoping the person would pay it. For example, I had wave internet in seattle and when I moved I obviously canceled. They screwed up setting the cancellation date though and ended up charging me the next month. Just got a collections notice for that 1 month of charges. I messaged them and apparently there is nothing they can do from their end at this point so now I'm disputing it with the collections agency.

                                            Pretty dumb on their part if you ask me considering now I'm telling everyone not to use them because of their screwup and the fact that they would sell it to a collections agency over 1 months worth of payments.

                                            • distances 112 days ago
                                              Like the other person said, here you have to explicitly end your subscriptions. Stopping payments will not end your subscriptions. You'll end up dealing with collection agencies.

                                              Unless the company values their public image and return customers more than a small payment, which thankfully is the case for many. I just wouldn't count on it, ever.

                                              • hocuspocus 112 days ago
                                                Netflix won't but I wouldn't take my chance with the average Germany company.

                                                I assure you that an insurance or telco will send unpaid bills to collection agencies. Especially if we are talking about one or two years of service.

                                          • ALittleLight 112 days ago
                                            If I have a "pay by month" subscription, and I don't pay, that's not a debt. That's the end of the subscription.
                                            • distances 112 days ago
                                              Here you have to explicitly end your subscriptions. Stopping payments will definitely not do that. You'll end up dealing with collection agencies.

                                              Edit: obviously only if the company is geared that way. They could just end the subscription too, but wouldn't count on it.

                                          • jeofken 112 days ago
                                            That’s the smart choice on their part. If they hounded you, you’d surely never buy from them again.
                                          • cheschire 112 days ago
                                            Or pay a termination fee equivalent of 10 months service.
                                        • jeofken 112 days ago
                                          It took me ages to cancel O2 DSL when I left Germany. I cancelled my gym membership in person at the gym many years ago - but this year 2021 I am still receiving letters, now from Inkasso where they claim I should still pay membership. I don’t even live in the country anymore, and I did cancel it in person! (That was John Reed Fitness, stay away Berliners). Call me whatever “-phobe” slur you wish, but after these experiences and more, I am never signing a contract with a German business again. No idea if AT and CH are similar.
                                          • ChuckNorris89 112 days ago
                                            AT is the same. The laws are very business friendly rather than consumer friendly.
                                          • kugelblitz 112 days ago
                                            Subscribe to our paid service? Enter your bank account in the small form here - and you're in!

                                            Unsubscribe?

                                            Step 1: Ok, click here.

                                            Step 2: Ok, just to make sure, you want to cancel your service?

                                            * NO, TAKE ME BACK

                                            * cancel

                                            Step 3 + 4 +5: Ok, we don't want anyone except you (even though you're logged in) accidentally cancelling your service for you by accident. We will send you a confirmation email, click on the link there, and then confirm on the confirmation page.

                                          • gerdesj 112 days ago
                                            You can't tar and feather the entirety of Europe like that. I'll provide a contra-example anecdote:

                                            Me and two other chaps formed a start up in 2000 - bog standard IT services/consultancy. Still trundling along, we won't set the world on fire but doing OK.

                                            One of our employees is Polish, in Poland. We pay him the same as everyone else. OK he's actually now self-employed for tax purposes and Brexit but his rate is the same as our other techies. He was working remote six months before anyone had heard of SARS-CoV-2.

                                            When we started out our first two employees were enticed away with twice their previous pay. lol. Travel shops don't pay much here in the UK. They stayed for 10 and 15 years.

                                            One month in 20 years we had a cash flow problem. We like to keep a decent float in the bank rather than drive fast cars. I do like to sleep at night. The Directors didn't get paid that month but all staff were paid. The next few months we caught up OK. Anyone who's run a small business will know that's not bad going for cash flow. I should point out that we have never, ever had an overdraft. We do have a mortgage but that costs less than the rent we used to pay for less than half the size of building.

                                            I could go on (sorry). Not all startups strive for the stars. A famous French bloke once memorably described Britain as a nation of shopkeepers (ie boring as fuck): I take that as a compliment.

                                            • ant6n 112 days ago
                                              Perhaps the underlying problem is Startup financing. Capital is hard to get, so the people who start startups aren’t technical, but rather connected business folks. So the technology is wonky, and the approaches aren’t product-first.

                                              Afaik, flixbus was founded by former BCG consultants, sounds unusual for a Startup.

                                            • camillomiller 112 days ago
                                              Plenty of good startups here, but the bad ones. oh boy, the bad ones...
                                              • ashtonkem 112 days ago
                                                There’s a weird edge case at least in US courts where the process of suing for lost wages is greater than the wages lost. This creates a lot of gaps for fraudsters, unfortunately.
                                                • ChuckNorris89 112 days ago
                                                  Same in Germany during the quarantine when some big chain gyms kept collecting membership fees even though the government said it's not legal to, they did it anyway.

                                                  Your only way to get justice was to take them to court, which would cost you more than the fees and since Germany doesn't have a class action lawsuits framework, each member would have to sue the gym separately.

                                                  • ashtonkem 112 days ago
                                                    That is extremely obnoxious. The more I learn about the German legal system, the less I like.

                                                    On the weird and semi-related flip side, our gym voluntarily cancelled ours (I planned to keep it going because it's a family business and I wasn't suffering financially) because it was cheaper for them to cancel their SaaS that they had used to track & bill members.

                                                • gregoriol 112 days ago
                                                  What do you mean exactly?
                                                  • mkl95 112 days ago
                                                    Working for a small European startup sucks. The company will ALWAYS find a way to shift the blame when something like this happens, not to mention every EU startup I've worked for gets away with late payments and shady financial moves (the worst offender was a German company I worked for early in my career).
                                                    • HatchedLake721 112 days ago
                                                      Yes, “European Startup” is one big homogenous thing, and not 30+ countries and half a billion people in population.
                                                      • LudwigNagasena 112 days ago
                                                        The EU makes a big effort to harmonize law across countries, so there might be some sense to talk about European startup scene. Though, of course German-speaking countries scene would have its own different as Germany itself.
                                                        • helmholtz 112 days ago
                                                          This line of thinking would lead to the of near-enough every interesting discussion. A certain amount of generalisation is required for discussions of these sorts.
                                                        • viraptor 112 days ago
                                                          > Working for a small European startup sucks. The company will ALWAYS find a way to shift the blame

                                                          Start-ups across ~50 countries? Always doing the same thing? I think you may be generalising quite a bit... It's not like an SV company would ever shift blame on the customer, right? :-)

                                                          • jnwatson 112 days ago
                                                            Late payment is not limited to European startups. Even large European companies do it. My personal undersampled data indicates a negative correlation between latitude and days until payment. South of 45 degrees, expect 180 days regardless of terms.
                                                      • gojomo 112 days ago
                                                        Reminds a bit of the massive theft of Mercedes from Car2Go in the US last year: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a27192115/thieves-car2go-s...

                                                        Criminals will find your weak spots & exploit them until closed.

                                                      • orange_tee 112 days ago
                                                        Why is a car for hire company called a startup?
                                                        • cinntaile 112 days ago
                                                          Because they have a cool app that you use to unlock the car with. That makes them a hip new company or in other words a startup.
                                                          • camillomiller 112 days ago
                                                            The app is not even cool. Is a React Native contraption developed externally. They switched to it last summer, exactly around the time when most of the vehicles got stolen, by the way. Before that they were using a different app connected to a white label solution provided by WunderMobility.
                                                          • onion2k 112 days ago
                                                            They have an app.
                                                            • camillomiller 112 days ago
                                                              *They have a React Native contraption struggling to scroll on an iPhone 12 Pro Max. Fixed that for you. :)
                                                              • ahartmetz 112 days ago
                                                                The standards for "startups" in Germany are reeeally low. Most of them seem to get founded with the motivation "I want to be the boss of a startup and / or get rich quick", not "I want to do something well".
                                                                • orange_tee 112 days ago
                                                                  I know it's a joke, but so do other car for hire companies. Ex: https://www.europcar.com/europcar-mobile
                                                                  • camillomiller 112 days ago
                                                                    Miles claims to be a startup in shared-mobility whose mission is to bring transparency to the market. It's not a joke, it's on their website.
                                                                • jrochkind1 112 days ago
                                                                  I dunno, why was WeWork? Why is anything?
                                                                  • sharken 112 days ago
                                                                    Yeah, startup seems quite a stretch and ought to be reserved for novel ventures and not "Yet another car rental company".
                                                                  • pkaye 112 days ago
                                                                    Shouldn't their name be in metric units?
                                                                    • camillomiller 112 days ago
                                                                      best comment so far. Fun thing is, before rebranding into this ungooglable name, they were called "Driveby", which was way more memorable and easily googlable. They had to add "mobility" to everything to be found. Even on twitter they're "Miles Mobility".
                                                                      • pkaye 112 days ago
                                                                        Driveby would be a terrible name in the US also. It means an incident in which a person, building, or vehicle is shot at by someone in a moving vehicle.
                                                                      • jeofken 112 days ago
                                                                        At least in Scandinavia a mile means 10km, just a shorthand. Not sure if it’s the same in Germany
                                                                        • tgsovlerkhgsel 112 days ago
                                                                          A few seconds ago while looking up the various definitions I found out that a German mile is apparently about 7500 meters (with three different definitions existing, all around that length). There are about 60 other definitions in Europe.

                                                                          I would have expected it to be most closely associated with the roman mile, which is around 1.5 km.

                                                                          Given that this is the very first time I've heard about the German mile, I would assume that <1% of the population knows about it, and they'd probably consider a "mile" either the US thing if they are familiar with it due to travel, or most likely with "some archaic unit that's somewhere around 1.5 or 2 kilometers long, no idea, why would you use that".

                                                                          The first association that I (as a native German speaker) when I read "Miles" in the German context wasn't distance units - I interpreted it as a given name of English origin.

                                                                          • Sebb767 112 days ago
                                                                            > Given that this is the very first time I've heard about the German mile, I would assume that <1% of the population knows about it, and they'd probably consider a "mile" either the US thing if they are familiar with it due to travel, or most likely with "some archaic unit that's somewhere around 1.5 or 2 kilometers long, no idea, why would you use that".

                                                                            At least in my circle of fellow native speakers, we know US culture somewhat and I think most would therefore think of the US mile. This is actually the first time I'm hearing about the German mile, as well ;)

                                                                        • lm28469 112 days ago
                                                                          "Kilometers" doesn't roll of the tongue as nicely
                                                                          • ficklepickle 112 days ago
                                                                            Clicks can be short for KM in some locales. Equally ungoogleable though.
                                                                            • rad_gruchalski 112 days ago
                                                                              km, not KM. KM is a Polish SI unit for hp (German PS).
                                                                        • ficklepickle 112 days ago
                                                                          Anybody here work for vulog? They are another European white-label car share platform provider.

                                                                          I'm nearing the end of reverse engineering one of their clients android apps.

                                                                          Lots of weak obfuscation, like calling certain endpoints multiple times (2-5x), which is totally useless against a MITM that can decrypt the traffic. Didn't even slow me down.

                                                                          Oh, and if you miss a certain header, it will respond with invalid JSON prefixed with "[]".

                                                                          Now I'm curious if they have immobilizers. The keys are kept in the car, so they must.

                                                                          Not that I want to do anything shady, I just want to use the service without being spied on. Decompiling the app found a bunch of baidu libs, Facebook and retargeting shite. The state of commercial software, yikes.

                                                                          • camillomiller 112 days ago
                                                                            Share Now (car2go + drive now) cars have an immobilizer regardless of the fact that they're keyless or not. Immobilizers are a trivial tech from the 90s, the fact that these company even struggle to cover this basic safety measure is astounding
                                                                            • tgsovlerkhgsel 112 days ago
                                                                              > respond with invalid JSON prefixed with "[]".

                                                                              This is a common security measure against some ancient trick that could be used to get outdated browsers to divulge the content of the JSON contrary to the same origin policy.

                                                                            • dna_polymerase 112 days ago
                                                                              There are absolutely no words to describe the stupidity exhibited here.

                                                                              What drove the founders in this market? Too stupid, lazy or incompetent to implement basic safety measures, but want to play in the ride sharing market, that is already saturated by bigger and better providers? What did they bring to the table in the first place?

                                                                              I have yet to encounter a German startup that really amazes me. This isn't it.

                                                                            • preya2k 112 days ago
                                                                              Hate to be the devil’s advocate here, but aside from shitty PR I don’t see a lot of things that went wrong:

                                                                              - As a Customer you need to make sure that your “Park” request goes through to the car and wait for the doors to lock. This might take a couple of seconds, but you can’t just press the button and run inside of a building where you might not have cell coverage at all. It’s not a RF key fob. I thing legally this would constitute negligence (Fahrlässigkeit).

                                                                              - Immobilizing the car once the phone is not close to the car seems like a bad idea. It’s a privacy nightmare, b/c you’re constantly being tracked. What about tunnels or parking garages? What if the battery dies? Seems like a whole lot of problems if they were to implement this. Do any of their competitors really do this (Share Now, Sixt Share, etc.)?

                                                                              • camillomiller 112 days ago
                                                                                Thanks for the comment.

                                                                                - If you're closing a rental car with a key fob you check the doors twice? The app said closed, it's closed. Even if this was the case, how could you possibly ask for the entire damages caused by a third party? The ToS only talk about the user letting someone else drive the car for negligence, but how can that encompass thieves? They're not asking for a negligence fee or a deductible, they want customers to pay for damages caused by thieves.

                                                                                - Nope, an immobilizer is an industry-standard for keyfobs and digital keys alike. All competitors have it. They don't track anything. They only check the idle state of the car. I you are driving, turn off the engine on a Share Now and We Share, then open a door, the immobilizer kicks in. That means that you need to open the app and "unlock the engine" to keep driving. Simple, extremely effective. In two cases reported, Miles said the cars were stolen up to 4hrs after the users left them. Even if they forgot to close them (which users deny, with witnesses) they're admitting that the car was open and available to anyone for hours. How is that not a public safety issue and a farlässigkeit of the company?

                                                                                • krona 112 days ago
                                                                                  At least in the UK, the loss to the company could easily have been covered by insurance and so would probably fail the test of negligence.
                                                                                  • ficklepickle 112 days ago
                                                                                    Use Bluetooth. Vulog (white label provider) supports this.

                                                                                    They also support a physical RFID card so you can still get in/lock up if your phone dies.

                                                                                    • EdwardDiego 112 days ago
                                                                                      Bluetooth would answer the tunnels and parking garages problem I imagine?
                                                                                    • javajosh 112 days ago
                                                                                      On a related note, they changed their name from "Drive By" last year. Apparently its still in the DNA though.
                                                                                      • jarym 112 days ago
                                                                                        Startup must be... cash strapped and just discovered their own insurers refused to cover the claim?
                                                                                        • camillomiller 112 days ago
                                                                                          Sounds very probable. Last investment was a 5m round led by Lukas Gadowski back in late 2019. Talk of the town is that they've already been kept alive multiple times by cash injections as private loans. Still, they're alive enough to mess their customers life and impose lawyers fees on them.
                                                                                        • unixhero 112 days ago
                                                                                          To be fair EUR13K is not unheard of. But he should sue, might as well pile on some risk and mitigate the damage.
                                                                                          • jonplackett 112 days ago
                                                                                            Why isn't the car insured anyway?
                                                                                            • camillomiller 112 days ago
                                                                                              If you're an insurer, and you find out your client has never implemented basic safety measures that have been industry standard for 30 years (i.e. an immobilizer), I guess denying the claim takes probably minutes.
                                                                                              • jonplackett 111 days ago
                                                                                                Regardless it's their responsibility to insure it, they'd just have to pay higher premiums.

                                                                                                They would know if the cars are insured or not before making a claim.

                                                                                            • OneGuy123 112 days ago
                                                                                              How can you be so bad at PR & Customer Support in 2021?

                                                                                              The person in charge of this should really go on Facebook every once in a while to see what can happen...

                                                                                              • camillomiller 112 days ago
                                                                                                The don't have any PR person, so I guess their thought process is "if we don't have a PR person, we won't have PR problems".
                                                                                                • jandrese 112 days ago
                                                                                                  Insert Eddie Murphy meme image here.